Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Ursula Von Der Leyen - addressing the Oireachtas yesterday. Opinions on her speech?

Options
1234689

Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No, I addressed your point in its entirety - then moved on.

    The EU parliament has no legally binding veto, period. It doesn't exist.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,867 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    @eskimohunt: No, I addressed your point in its entirety - then moved on.

    Erm, no you did not. You had asked a question about how UvdL could be removed from office and I made the comparison to MPs in Westminster who also can't be removed by public vote. You then changed direction by saying this...

    Those MPs were democratically elected by public vote.

    ...which leads me to think that yet again your posting crap to get your anti-EU Farage-ism across.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You were comparing Ursula von der Leyen (publicly unelected; appointed) with Members of Parliament (publicly elected; un-appointed).

    Your comparison is flawed. It's false. It's wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,933 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    From links I posted, they don't call it a "veto" but under that "Ordinary Legislative Procedure", either Parliament or European Council can amend or stop the Commission's proposed laws from going forward. However that doesn't seem to apply in every case. The first link also mentioned separate "Consent" procedure, which is a "veto", but only for some very specific purposes (mentioned new agreements negotiated by the EU as one example).

    Can you re-post your europa link showing there is no "veto" so I can have a read of it?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,867 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    You asked this question which is what I replied to...

    Can Ursula von der Leyen, the most powerful person in the EU at present, be removed via public vote?

    You are now being disingenuous in your replies and veering away fromn your original question to make your point that she's unelected etc



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Look, I'll answer the questions then.

    Can Ursula von der Leyen by removed via a public vote?

    No.

    Was Ursula von der Leyen elected via a public election or was she appointed to the role?

    Appointed.

    ---

    You can compare Ursula to parliamentary MPs all you wish, but the latter are at least elected and can be removed via a public vote.

    Those who are elected via the public vote (i.e. EU MEPs) have no power whatsoever. The so-called "parliament" is just a talking shop. All the laws are created by Ursula and her similarly appointed team (i.e. the modern day politburo).

    I repeat: your comparison is faulty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭72sheep


    Small correction: Ireland are "the best girls in the class" :-) In the last month we've had Christine LaGarde on LLS and now UVDL in The Dail, I guess we should count our stars that Zelensky could not make The Toy Show, LOL



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,867 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    FFS! MPs are not removed by public vote. Johnson and his contemptuous cabinet for example could not be removed by the public.

    All the public can do is not re-elect them back in. The public cannot remove then.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You're talking nonsense.

    You clearly are unaware of the Recall of MPs Act, 2015 - in which MPs can be recalled and a byelection imposed by their constituents.

    And if MPs are not removed by this means, they can be removed at general elections.

    In either case, the public have the final say.

    In the case of the EU Commission and the EU Commission President, neither of these two conditions are present. Commissioners are appointed, and Commissioners cannot be removed via public means.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭Ahwell


    You should really have look into the Act a bit more, because it is in fact you who is talking nonsense -  the act does not allow constituents to initiate proceedings. Instead, proceedings are initiated only if an MP is found guilty of a wrongdoing that fulfils certain criteria...like say... Boris Johnson lying to the House.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭farmingquestion


    Ursula is a dangerous piece of work.

    All she cares about is her and the EUs self interests, not what is right.

    The only reason they give a shite about Ukraine is because they know if Ukraine is on EUs side, they have access to all their oil and natural resources which will hurt Russia.

    Talking about Ukraine having European values. What values are they? Corruption? Homophobia? Religious? A low covid vaccination rate too.

    Same thing with her little speech in the Dail the other day. "Ireland was in a similar situation to Ukraine, with Britain"...You think she would have come over here blasting the UK if they were still in the EU? Would she ****. But because they left the EU she'll stick the boot in.

    Going on about Russia and Putin yet rimming Israel happily.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,881 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The EU's a heck of a lot more democratic than the UK at the moment. I'm not finding the usual post convincing.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That sounds like excellent legislation to me.

    My point stands.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,867 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Ok. So hypothetically, if I lived in West Suffolk and didn't like that my tory MP, Matt Hancock, was off doing poxy reality tv rather than being an MP, how can I and his other constituients remove him under this act?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Limitations are always needed on legislation. For instance: if there were no limits, you would have an almost permanent and constant stream of byelections because noisy groups would start petitions left, right, and centre. Clearly after an MP is elected, he / she should only be removed if there is evidence of wrongdoing. This makes the legislation viable and practical, rather than something open to abuse.

    That's the first point. Second, you're missing the wider point.

    Matt Hancock was elected as an MP, and can be removed at the next election. If indeed he is found to have committed some form of wrongdoing, he can be called to a byelection by that legislation.

    None of those three criteria apply to Ursula von der Leyen.

    To summarise:

    • Unlike Matt Hancock, Ursula was appointed.
    • Unlike Matt Hancock, Ursula will not be subject to a democratic election by the peoples of Europe.
    • Unlike Matt Hancock, there is no public mechanism within Europe for citizens to recall Ursula and subject her to a public vote.

    And just to make it even worse, Matt Hancock is not the sole initiator of legislation in Westminster, but Ursula von der Leyen - the appointed and anointed one - can, in conjunction with the other appointed Commissioners, and is the sole body for creating legislation that impacts 500+ million people.

    Look, would you approve of a scenario in which Matt Hancock was appointed as your MP, could not be removed at the next election, and who was at the same time the head of a body that initiated legislation for 65 million people in the UK? (And the UK parliament had no legally binding veto on any of that legislation).

    If you are against that, then you are against Ursula von der Leyen's position too, and the structure within which she occupies.

    Your comparison is utterly flawed. At this stage I have to assume you're just hoping to be right.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,867 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    So despite all that bullsh1t there, your answer is that he can't be removed!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The sheer acrobatics you're going through to justify the unjustifiable is astonishing.

    Go and re-read my post. Your position is in denial.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,933 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    I see your europa link now this morning (and in a reply to me no less - below) so apologies for posting too quickly & not paying enough attention there yesterday evening.

    Ironically I googled + then posted exact same link to argue differently. A reading of it & that other link about the steps in the Ordinary Legislative Process/codecision makes clear the Parliament can amend and can (in some cases) block the legislation proposed by the Commission, and in very limited circumstances can even have a "veto". It mentioned agreements made by the EU. Considering it, I can think of one the Parliament is currently blocking (with China from 2020 - https://www.europarl.europa.eu/legislative-train/theme-a-stronger-europe-in-the-world/file-eu-china-investment-agreement).

    Yeah the Parliament is the weakest of the 3 parts of the EU machinery and it does not initiate law, but it is not as bad as you make out. Hopefully we'll get some new EU treaty soon(ish) that will increase its power further, one no doubt you'll bitterly oppose if you're still in country & voting.




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's quite obvious to me that, if the EU structure were recommended in each member state at the national level, nobody would accept it.

    To take the case of Ireland: imagine that there was a referendum on political reform in this country and it proposed creating an unelected Commission of 27 politicians, all of whom are appointed by a council and cannot be removed by public vote, and who unilaterally decide legislation for everyone in this country.

    I'm certain - 100% certain - that the turnout would be massive, and that it would be rejected in the mid-to-late 90% figure. And the reasons for its rejection would be clear - that this is a positively anti-democratic structure.

    Would you accept it? Would anyone reading this post accept that structure in this country?

    And if we can see it at the national level, then we can see it at any level - including the EU level.

    Ursula von der Leyen was unpopular in her own country of Germany and was a disaster as Minister for Defence (and linked to various scandals). Yet she gets swooped in to become EU Commission President to oversee and initiate legislation for half a billion people.

    It's an absolute farce. How anyone can justify this structure of appointments is beyond me.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 4,933 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Again the Commission does not "unilaterally decide legislation". It proposes it, that is not same as unilaterally deciding it.

    Repeating, the EU is not a nation state. It's hard to put into a box. What follows at national level does not always follow at supranational levels. I mean even with in nations that are federal, you will have strutures that depart (sometimes grossly so) from full democracy to try and balance out regions which may be very different in size and have different interests.

    The kind of structure you claim to believe the EU machinery should have, would have been unacceptable to the members. Those member governments appoint the Commission, they are all democracies (or were supposed to be when they joined the EU anyway, doubts about Hungary now) exercising power on behalf of their people. They are the ones that will try to hold on to their perogative to select the President and would likely fight tooth and nail to keep the power to appoint "their" Commissioners as well, vs see it moved up to a more directly democratic EU-level structure.

    The last time there was supposed to be a new process (Spitzenkandidate) where the groupings/party coalitions in the Parliament would choose their candidates for the President with largest group winning. They did that, and if I recall how it turned out some of the Council (Poland and Hungary) really didn't like the very pro EU one(s) most likely to get the job at all, and so we have von der Leyen ending up in role as kind of compromise worked out among the Council.

    Anyway why bother! In another post you said von der Leyen and Commission Presidents past were all "ghouls" (lol) and wrote,"the sooner this ghastly structure crumbles, the better for the electorates of each member state." A fairly extreme view - how EU collapsing is good for Ireland is left unexplained. So forgive me if I state again I don't think you care about nitty gritty of how the EU works, the exact powers of the European Parliament or Commission, or how close to the bare "metal" of the electorates the decisions like who the Commission President is are made. You just hate it all and want it gone.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They are the sole body to propose legislation. Therefore, it acts unilaterally. And its legislation cannot be amended / vetoed in a legally binding manner by the EU parliament.

    I never said the EU was a nation state. But Guy Verhofstadt and others have already recommended changing the name of the commission to the "EU Government". Make of that what you will.

    The rest of your post does not undermine any of the points I made re: Ursula von der Leyen. It's largely commentary about the history of faux attempts at reform and respective failures to date.

    On your final point, I wish to see the structure crumble but not states of Europe working together. We can have both. It doesn't have to be EU or nothing. That's a false dichotomy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,690 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Looks like a bit of a corruption scandal has broke. Not a lot in the press about it for some reason.


    “The earth is littered with the ruins of empires that believed they were eternal.”

    - Camille Paglia



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It's quite obvious to me that, if the EU structure were recommended in each member state at the national level, nobody would accept it.

    Of course. Because the EU is not a federal government and nor do you want it to be so complaining that it isn't is utterly stupid. The EU is not supposed to be the same as a national government and the power is not supposed to rest with EU citizens in a one person one vote scenario. It is supposed to be a supranational body in which the member states are the ones with the voting rights and power.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Well 16 MEPs houses weren't raided, 16 houses were raided, one of whom was an MEP. This is the problem with getting information from idiots like Farage.

    Its also the one institution that is in fact elected by constituents which 5 mins ago you were saying was the most important thing. You don't seem to hold very consistent positions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,674 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    All she cares about is her and the EUs self interests, not what is right.

    Oh fcuk off with this sanctimony.

    In a world in which we've watched massively self interest figures influence both the Brexit vote and the subsequent negotiations and their outcome, and US politics over the same period, if the best you can do is wail about the President of the EU being focused on the EU's self interests then you clearly have nothing to complain about.

    I'm so sick of the righteous indignation right wing fans come out with as they ignore the herd of elephants in the room.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Farage says in the video that we don't yet have all the information.

    The important part was the 600,000 euros and its links to Qatari bribery.

    It's yet another financial scandal to rock this institution.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    This does not give him free reign to fill in the gaps - i.e. brazenly lie.

    There is currently massive scandals ongoing in the UK about financial scandals related to PPE, one involving someone who then got an appointed lifetime post in Parliament. That seems significantly worse.

    It is not a good look and its a bad event. But its not going to "rock the institution"



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 21,674 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Farage does know a thing or two about funding/bribery payments.




Advertisement