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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,126 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    They were still the top exporter of electricity this year due to nuclear and replaced France who have been up until this year, year on year the top exporter. Sweden`s nuclear was still churning out around 5,200 MW steady up until 4 today.


    Here wind has been providing 400 MW from an installed nameplate capacity of 4,300 MW. Not much reliability from wind on those figures.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Page 11 of https://cdn.esb.ie/media/docs/default-source/leading-lights/esb-offshore-wind-delivering-renewable-energy-for-ireland.pdf

    It's one way to maximise existing infrastructure.

    Another is to add Zirconium to the Aluminium used for overhead cables to get a heat resistant alloy so you can run them hotter and continuous current increases of up to 100% are possible through the same pylons if you change the cables so no planning permission. You lose more to heating at peak power but you can use more power.

    Converting a link from AC to DC would allow 41% more power at the same current by using full voltage the whole time. But you'd need converter stations at each end. It's an option but not cheap and there are losses. Any links by sea over any distance would have to be done with DC.

    Sending hydrogen down a pipe or converting it to ammonia (or other hydrogen carriers) and send out by truck or rail. Storage is another option.

    But new pylons would be a better option. Underground outside of touristic or heavily built up areas is crazy. Turlough Hill was undergrounded above the tree line back in the 1960's so it's been done here when appropriate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie



    Is this still not more reliable than wind when averaged over the entire year?



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    For the same nameplate capacity nuclear on it's own is has a higher up time than wind on it's own.

    Using a mix of excess renewables and there's not much in it. Factor in the non-operable plants that should be working and its way worse than 77%. Also nuclear doesn't produce cheap excess power like wind does.

    No one expects wind to be there 24/7/365 It's kinda expected of nuclear. Both need backup / storage but wind is more predictable for the week and smaller generators so needs less spinning reserve


    Nuclear has a much longer down time. At least 80% of Japan's nuclear has been offline for 11 years. France is down to 50% capacity factor this year. The new reactors in US and Western Europe are at least a decade late. UK has shutdown a large part of it's nuclear fleet early in recent years.


    Nuclear costs more to build and takes a lot longer to build, and there's a much higher risk of the project being abandoned and so produce nothing. Which can't be ignored if you are planning for the future.



    German nuclear in September last year 12.4GW in the first week falling to 4.16GW in the last week.



  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭The Real President Trump


    Omg will you please stop repeating debunked points

    Excess renewables = mal-investmemt

    Wind plant only has a 25 year design life

    Nuclear produces some of the cheapest, cleanest power on the plant -> CANDU reactors

    Wind is entirely not more predictable than nuclear

    Wind needs significantly more spinning reserve circa 70-85%

    Nuclear does not cost more to build, the nominal sum is higher but it's design life is triple and it's land footprint is massively smaller

    Nuclear downtime is as a result of pissy green members and policies of governments hampering those plants, check out Korea for sensible projects



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭ginger22




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭ginger22


    16 turbines within line of sight yesterday, doing absolutely nothing. Will be the same today.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭ginger22


    In the Sunday Business Post this morning, IDA to screen foreign investment projects base on carbon emissions. Let those projects go to other countries instead. They will be established somewhere anyway. So do we live in our own unique atmosphere. You couldnt make it up.

    They will bankrupt the country.

    https://www.businesspost.ie/news/climate-rules-could-scupper-new-fdi-projects/



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That's a welcome development to be honest though apart from the likes of data centers, we haven't had any major energy users come into the country in a long time afaik



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭ginger22


    Yes shure we can import these products instead. Makes it OK



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Since we moved away from the protectionist days of Eamonn "we should all dance at the crossroads" DeValera, Ireland has always been a major importer that will never change.

    Ireland has largely moved away from manufacturing to a service based economy due to our higher salaries. High margin industry e.g. high end medical devices, pharmaceuticals etc are the only large manufacturing employers left and that's only because the high salaries are mitigated by those high margins.

    This policy will likely impact data centers the most. Anything that pushes them to improve energy efficiency is no bad thing imho

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,407 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    What an absolute joke.


    We really are a pathetic weak nation, the **** is gonna hit the fan very soon.



  • Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭Coolcormack1979


    Another “win” for the greens to send us back to the stone age



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    So "high-end" manufacturing will drive us back to the stone age?

    You are going to need a whiteboard to explain that one!



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Wind, solar and nuclear all need dispatchable backup and spinning reserve.

    Black Swan events aren't all that rare with nuclear.

    Can you predict an automatic SCRAM ? (US stats show that with 4 reactors you'd expect such an outage every 6 months, other countries are worse) and you need to replace 75% of that loss within 5 seconds and the other 25% by 10 seconds later. LOTS of spinning reserve needed, ALL THE TIME.

    Could you predict that Japan would lose 100% of it's nuclear power and then keep it off for an extended period.

    vs

    Can you predict how much wind there will be in 4 days time ? That's how we know how much dispatchable plant to have up and running then and when to have it running.

    Wind turbines need ZERO spinning reserve, because until we get a wind farm over 450MW it's the largest generator which is thermal plant that determines spinning reserve needs. Even then we wouldn't need to provide spinning reserve if there's an expected surplus of renewables as we could just stop diverting to storage.


    Can you predict how long it will take to get power from a wind farm under construction ? (compare and contrast to EDF getting 14 years of additional financing for a plant that's already going to be 10 years late)


    Excess renewables improves grid security by providing more power when conditions aren't optimum and allows you to re-use power produced when conditions were better from storage or import/export.

    Nuclear means worrying about losing a large chunk of your grid at once and/or where to get power from for months or years if there's an extended outage.



    Could you have predicted that France would lose 50% of it's power or that Italy and Germany would close down ALL of their plants ?

    Can you predict which nuclear construction projects will be abandoned ? Or will be more than 5 years late ?

    Nuclear is reliable, but not reliable enough to justify the risks and delays.


    The often repeated claim is that nuclear lasts 60 years. Going back perhaps 3,500 years to Moses the Bible lists human life expectancy as 70 years and while people do live that long it's only been true for the average person in recent times and only in the richest counties. It's not a given.

    So while in theory it's possible for reactors to reach 60 years, in practice if you exclude the reactors still under construction then of the 737 reactors where construction started none, zero got to 60 years on the grid and because there's only 410 still active it means they'd have to run for 107 years to bring the average reactor up to 60 years.

    Altogether now "This time it'll be different"



    Wind turbines can be refurbished and reused or resold or recycled. Blades are just 5% of the initial cost and can be replaced and those made of carbon fibre can be thermally treated, glass fibre can be used in cement plants. Future blades will be more recyclable. There's a market for second hand turbines.


    Speaking of 60 years, I like the idea of floating turbines that can be towed back to port for maintenance, like the Flip Ship has been doing since 1962.




  • Registered Users Posts: 15,126 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Anybody that believes that data centers are not direct related to "high-end" manufacturing, especially in relation to Direct Foreign Investment (FDI) needs a reality check. You start closing data centers or putting energy restrictions in their way and they will go elsewhere with both their "high-end" counterparts and their leprechaun tax returns not be long in following. The IDA have been warning for some time now how the expensive and uncertain state of our electricity supply has been making life difficult for them in attracting DFI.

    Do you think the Chinese are ramping up their generation from coal to manufacture plastic toys rather than to supply "high-end" green tech. Japan hasn`t a low-end manufacturing economy and they told the world where it could stick it`s emission targets a year ago where coal was concerned in relation to their economy. South Korea, another country not low-end either has just 3% of it electricity supply from renewables.Germany are not a low-end manufacturing country and we see where their economy is now and their scramble burning anything they can get their hands on to keep it alive.

    If anything, a competitive and dependable supply of electricity is now more important for "high-end" manufacturing than low-end ever was, as it mainly relied on cheap wages and lax labour laws.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A data center is to Apple etc what a warehouse is to Amazon. A place to store stuff, nothing more. For the energy requirements they have a shockingly low benefit to the wider economy.

    Take the Apple one that was going into Athenry, the site, when completed, would have consumed the equivalent of 7 counties in energy terms.

    Thankfully its dead



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,407 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    This is one of the most stupidest posts I’ve read here and there has been quite a few.


    If you think data centres don’t help keep an economy ticking over while contributing to the pot in multiple ways then what’s the point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Tell me you know absolutely nothing about the role of data centers, without telling me.

    You clearly think the internet just magics itself on to your phone or laptop, which in fairness, explains a lot.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No matter what way you want to phrase it at the end of the day a data center is little more than servers and storage with a handful of personnel and a honking big energy demand.

    Not worth the footprint or energy demand from an economic point of view.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,126 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    I think if you close a few down or put them under restriction on energy use, you will quickly find they have a lot more importance to these companies who are not just providing good paying jobs, but are also swelling our tax coffers with leprechaun tax billions than a shed in Arizona.

    The IDA Has been warning for some time now how our expensive electricity charges, (and that is not going to improve with this 30 gigawatt offshore insanity), and undependability are hindering their attempts to attract other companies to invest here as it is..



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Of course a data centre is little more than servers, that's the entire point of them. Now, talking the next baby step, what do you think runs on these servers?

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Sunday, December 11th 2022 - UK (gridwatch) - Wind 1.30%

    Sunday, December 11th 2022 - Ireland (smartgriddashboard) - Wind 1.90%

    It's freezing.


    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Looks like it's blowing nicely offshore, illustrates the benefits of offshore wind



  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭The Real President Trump


    Ah ffs, they are supposed to be the development authority not the anti-development / nimbys

    This is the same retarded thinking attacking agriculture, if you attack the someone's food supply and prosperity you'd be accused of ethnic cleansing under different circumstances



  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭The Real President Trump


    So would that be a 100% spinning reserved needed eh



  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭The Real President Trump




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    You are looking at temperature. Here is the wind map. December 11 2022. What is this offshore wind you speak of? I don't recommend Rockall.



    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Galway Wind Park

    A few km offshore, approx location of the offshore wind farm (open to correction on the location as its from memory)

    Offshore will also use far larger wind turbines and blades than are permitted on land



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  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭The Real President Trump


    Right here I'll give you a chance

    Please provide 1 just 1 example from anywhere in the world where excess / over investment in a sector is not regarded as mal-investment, a miss allocation of resources and the undermining of the broader sector

    1 just 1 example



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