Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Self Employed /Company Advice Please

Options
  • 27-11-2022 12:03pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭


    Hi


    I am self employed Electrician aged mid 40's and have a company last 10 years. Previously i always withdrew all money from company (paid 50% tax) as was saving to buy a house for for my family, which we did last year. My partner is also employed in the company doing administration work. Im not sure what to do in the future.

    1 - Should I leave profit in company and pay 12.5% each year then when reach between 55 and 66 liquidate the company and have a nest egg for retirement. Is it true you can build up cash up to €700,000 and liquidate company without paying and cgt

    2 - Keep profits in company for a few years and the company buys a property for rental income when I retire.

    3 - Invest in a pension (i have a dislike/ dont trust pensions and pension funds - giving hard money to someone else to invest in )

    4 - Keep paying 50% tax and withdraw all money each year


    Any advice opinions welcome



«13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Mick Tator


    It really depends on your financial circumstances and what you want to do with the business.

    Having a Ltd company (generally) protects your personal assets by transferring liability to the company.

    Profit can be retained in the company or paid out. There are rules as to the amount that can be paid out based on the company’s liabilities. If profits are paid out to an individual they are treated as income and liable for the usual deductions. There is nothimg to prevent you maximizing your pension contributions into a personal fund and using that to buy an investment property.

    If you are growing/ want to grow your business you need cash in the co., it also improves perception of the business and makes it easier to get credit

    Selling the company has tax implications -  selling the shares of the co. or selling its assets have different tax treatments.

    You need to talk to an accountant.



  • Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭John Electrician33


    I dont want to invest or grow the business - it hasn't or dosent need any investment or assets - I am a self employed electrician so all i need is tools and a van.

    What I want is some income when I retire - either a pension or preferably buy another house as rental income.

    Can I just pay 12.5% corporation tax and when hit 55 liquidate the company and buy a house with the money

    Whats the best options



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,226 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Suspect it depends on your turnover and average annual taxable income after expenses etc. Also self employed here, sole trader like yourself. Signed up to a PRSA scheme about 15 years ago and now put in near max annually that's allowed. This reduces income tax payable. On retirement can take out 25% of fund I believe tax free and invest rest in fund that will pay additional monthly pension. Between that, two state pensions and some ongoing work (will you ever retire completely?) - expect to be reasonably OK. Some people invest in property and call it their pension but really it's a whole heap of extra work and expense too, and you're gambling on the property market.



  • Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭John Electrician33


    Say i paid myself €15,000 year and my partner €20,000 year - and there was a profit left of €40,000 - I hate idea invest money in pension and u cant do what u want with it when u retire -(u only get 25% and rest u get weekly) i like the idea that if i work hard and in 10 years time i want invest in a house in Spain or a greyhound Im free to invest what i want with my money - not a pension fund keep it and give me a certain amount weekly.

    But thanks for above advice i am listening to all opinions



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,739 ✭✭✭SureYWouldntYa


    You should be able to meet all the requirements for Retirement Relief and be exempt from Capital Gains Tax up to €750k when winding up the company - ie €750k you can withdraw tax free

    You would probably be best to ask your accountant who files your company accounts and tax returns, they should be able to advise best



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,066 ✭✭✭downtheroad


    Close company surcharge would be applied on undistributed funds left in the company, increasing your tax liability.



  • Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭John Electrician33




  • Registered Users Posts: 236 ✭✭adrianw


    Downtheroad, Why would the close company surcharge apply? There is no investment or estate income?



  • Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭John Electrician33


    Am I crazy by paying 12.5% corporation tax - then after 5 /10 years the company buys a house and i use this rental income for my pension. If i want liquidate the company between 55 and 66 i can do that and the house transfers to me & my partner



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,226 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Judging by your replies here, yes you are out of your depth :)

    As per post #2, you need to talk to an accountant.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭John Electrician33


    Well can you explain whats wrong instead of saying im out of my depth and I need an accountant - if u dont know just say so. What will the accountant say in simple english



  • Registered Users Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Mick Tator


    You are talking about the future of your family and your retirement. Looking for free, precise advice on this forum is clueless.

    When you go to an accountant s/he will tell you that this is a very complex issue and that s/he need the following information..(long questionnaire) .. If you continue to query his/her advice you will be politely told (again) that this is a complex issue, that you are out of your depth and to sit down and listen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,226 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    There are companies and individuals who go to various lengths & strategies to avoid paying tax and maximising the returns from their income streams. They employ accountants and legal people who specialise in tax to do this. They are not bog standard self employed people who read about these things. The PRSA type savings pension scheme was brought in to minimise charges and facilitate self employed to invest in own pensions. That's the simplest option with least work. I read there is a new pension scheme coming in with the government putting in €1 for every €3 saved, but best check that yourself :)



  • Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭John Electrician33


    I am an Electrician - if someone asks me a question I dont make it its very complex and the customer is out of their depth - I explain things clear and simple. If an accountant told me the above I would politely leave and find an accountant who can explain things.

    Please note Im not a multi national company with 2,000 employees - its a simple enough question, I am just looking for simple advice.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,710 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    Not sure how people can give you advice. You say you take all profit from the company - is this 10k or 100k. How many. You are adverse to pensions, yet you want to save for retirement, and you also want to minimise tax. There are a few contradictions there. You can choose a pension with as much or as little risk as you want and it's tax efficient t

    It's like me asking you to wire a house without giving you any dimensions, how many sockets etc. Excluding pensions out the gate is like saying I'm also not gonna consider a fuseboard



  • Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭John Electrician33


    Ok I will keep my question simple. Say i make 50k profit this year - is it a good idea to pay 12.5 tax - retain the money in the company, then after 5 years doing this hopefully I will have enough money (€200,000) to buy a house and I can use the rental from this house as an income when i retire.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    think about your first line there - if someone needed to fix a socket you might be able to give them advice on here. if someone needed to wire a house they would need to employ you to do the work.

    in your case youre wiring a house, you need to talk to an accountant (sounds strange i know). the idea is that long term you will be saving many multiple of the initial cost of engaging them to help



  • Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭John Electrician33


    Ok I will keep my question simple. Say i make 50k profit this year - is it a good idea to pay 12.5 tax - retain the money in the company, then after 5 years doing this hopefully I will have enough money (€200,000) to buy a house and I can use the rental from this house as an income when i retire.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,477 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    John, lots of people here have advised you to talk to a professional but you seem hesitant. I understand your position. Talk to family/friends you respect and ask them who they use for financial advice. Talk to two/three of them and listen to what they say to you. The initial meeting should not cost you anything.

    Doing it right, first time, could save you a lot of money in the future. But please do it!

    Good luck to you!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭spakman


    I'm not an accountant, I'm self employed similar to yourself.

    But if the company buys the house, the company owns it. How does it transfer to your ownership without you needing to buy it or pay tax on it?



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 5,773 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Have you considered the close xonoany surcharge? You should talk to whoever does your taxes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,041 ✭✭✭Deeec


    I take it you already have an accountant who files your returns - why don't you ask them for advice.

    I am an accountant myself but cannot offer you advice as there are so many unknowns in your situation. It really does depend on how much profits you are making and how much income your family needs to live on.

    You are coming across as very aggressive in your replies - all you need to do is sit down with your accountant ( who knows your accounts and business) and they will advise you. It sounds like you can afford to pay for good advice so what's the problem.

    I wouldn't post on boards for advice on how do I rewire my house so it's ridiculous for you to expect someone to give you financial advice given the very limited info you have given.



  • Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭John Electrician33


    I apologise if i am aggressive - its more frustrated - to me its a very simple question - my accountant wants me to invest in a pension as he or his pension manager gets a yearly fee to manage it - if I manage my own affairs my accountant gets no commission or yearly fee - so I believe there is a conflict of interest.

    It was a general enough question in my eyes - the idea of paying 12.5% tax and investing after a few years in a property for rental income in my eyes seems good logical idea - but nearly everyone on this thread bar one or two all repeat same thing. If you check the electrical thread all electricians freely give good free advice and not patronise saying go speak to an electrician



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,477 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Because setting up a mortgage like you are looking for is specialised and to do it tax-efficiently is even more specialised.

    i’m sure there’s caveats all over the electrical forum stating that you should employ a professional.

    Why not try and negotiate with your accountant on his management fee?



  • Registered Users Posts: 731 ✭✭✭Sir Galahad


    OP. You say that you’ve an issue giving your money to someone else to invest ? I bet there’s a few people here saying the same thing about electricians “ I hate paying them to re wire my home” 😉. I suggest (after 38 years in Financial Services) you pay a fee based broker for independent advice and avoid the “forum’s investment experts” 😎



  • Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭John Electrician33


    Its all the same comments - "pay for advice" - whats the point of this thread if no one gives advice for free?????? Its not rocket science - or Im not asking step by step guide to making an atomic bomb - its fairly simple question - but everyone replies the same "its way to complicated to explain - get an accountant and pay them"


    I recall the movie "Margin Call" with Jeremy Irons - about Lehman Brothers collapse - there is a good scene where he said to an employee to explain the financial problems to him like he was a small dog or a golden retriever. Everyone on this thread comes back with the line "its way to complicate to explain". Im just looking for simple advice - im not asking for a 50 page written document.


    CAN ANYONE GIVE IT A GO?????????????



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,477 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    Maybe it’s just a case of nobody here knows how to do it.

    Google ‘set up Mortgage Pension’ and see if anything comes up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,959 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Read thru the accommodation and property forum to see the issues with being a small time landlord.

    Putting all your retirement savings into one thing is a very dumb idea If you biy a house, for example, then what happens if you get a nightmare tenant who refuses to pay thd rent, or trashes the place.

    Yes, pension schemes have management fees. But the tax advantages easily outweigh them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,041 ✭✭✭Deeec


    WE HAVE NO INFORMATION ABOUT YOU so it is very hard to advise you

    What age are you?

    Is the figures you gave earlier of €35000 salary between yourself and wife accurate - hopefully you are not living on that alone!!

    What other income do you have as a couple ( if any)?

    Is the company profit figure you gave earlier accurate?

    Do you have children? What is your future personal income needs

    Your accountant does not set up a pension for you and hard to see how they are gaining on advising you to invest in a pension. You receive tax relief on the contribution so its a sensible option. Any financial adviser can you up with this - its nothing to do with your accountant. The accountant just claims the tax relief for you.

    A company can buy a house but you will gain little personally on this structure.

    When you liquidate the company you will pay tax on the withdrawal whether cash or property.

    There are ways to limit the tax payable but we are talking complicated structures which being honest may be out your reach given that the company seems to be small.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 11,226 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Rubbish - you don't have to pay anyone for advice! If you don't want to pay or think it worthwhile to pay. Make your own decisions and live with the consequences :)

    There are several companies who advertise pension schemes around Oct/ Nov. Look them up yourself and enquire about a Personal Retirement Savings Account. Yes, they will charge a small management fee (set by legislation). But you can look at the info yourself and be completely independent of your accountant or broker if you want to be. Pension values rise and fall and rise and fall but the general idea is that when you retire you will have an additional income stream to state pension (as well as doing the odd nixer). Meanwhile your annual payment into the PRSA is deducted from income tax bill, but not all taxes. There are limits on what you put in annually that is allowable against income tax based on your age. So whilst nothing to stop up putting in €50K one year, you're unlikely to get full relief on that.

    That's the simplest solution for ordinary self employed people as far as I know. I say ordinary as there are high flying legal eagles and medical consultants etc who have larger amounts of money to salt away... but they pay tax accountants to do this.



Advertisement