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Is crypto era over?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,465 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Defi is fine for trading but anything loan related is very high risk. I wouldn’t see it replacing traditional finance anytime soon. Liquidation thresholds and domino cascading liquidations would be a concern. Even leveraged trading by people is causing market issues.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,143 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    From a commercial sense the business model of providing mortgages or retaii loans makes very little sense. Take Ireland for example lending to retail customers and indeed commercial customers and property mortgages require a firm to be regulated by the Central Bank. There is capital requirements and then compliance with various codes including eg cps , ccma.

    Now if you get over that hurdle there is then the economics. The loans would have to be in fiat as the majority of homesllwrs or car dealerships don’t take crypto. The customer would have to put collateral probably usdc or eth and then pay back a monthly repayment drip feeding it in. The assets could be held as collateral but actually crystaliding that is near to impossible. So capital outlay In a market that protects the customer to the hilt is not financially viable. They would make way more money at less risk of default by Airbnb the market or becoming a market maker.



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]



    Crypto is pretty unique in that when a robbery happens, you lose your money. When's the last time a bank robbery bankrupted customers? There is probably something recently somewhere but I can't find it, but it's certainly not a common occurrence in a country like Ireland. I was talking about large robberies like Northern Bank, things that are meaningful like the crypto ones, not methheads going into banks holding a banana stealing an average of $6,500.

    If there were thousands of bank robberies every year that resulted in material harm to customers, we wouldn't use them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,143 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    I think we are the end for institutional clients leaving there assets on an exchange. Actual third party regulated custodians should contribute to the safety and protection of the customers. The exchanges are trying their best to make it dffucult for those custodians and are promoting their self custody options. The proof of reserves concept is a joke as it’s literally back of a fat packet and quite similar to alameda AAA rated balance sheet which as literally made of sand.

    Exchanges are utilising their unregulated status to in effect con the comfort of their clients as they roll our audit reports and the customer base thinks that’s all that’s needed but the audit report is based on the exchange confirmations rather than a root and branch deep dive.

    it’s unbelievable that the likes of SBFstill has a platform at the likes of the NY times summit. Be similar to madoff speaking at the NYSE summer launch 3 days after his clients lost everything. With regards to the robberies or indeed hacks it’s drastically different the chances based on the asset. Tether just burned all the stolen to,ems and replaced them to the customers. Bitfinex had law enforcement watching those wallets for years until that day that they moved them and most are returned.


    w are seeing more cases where wallets are being frozen and trying to return stolen assets. Good example of this was the lcx case. However the stakeholders like the exchanges and vasps instinctively jyst say not my problem. Historically this was just accepted as part of the enigma. However it remains to be seen if this concept is going to continue. A multi lateral trading facilit6 cannot have an unreasonable component that could leave a customer to suffer damages without appropriate mitigation and controls. I don’t know how this could be achieved but it’s something that will be expected by legislators. One concern I have is some of the senators on the committee and the depos are literally clueless and obviously of their depth. But then again a lot of people in the industry are too.



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Madoff's clients got back something like 80% of their money, which shows how diabolical these crypto scams are where people lose pretty much everything.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,143 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    That’s very true. But customers have to bear responsibility if they leave their assets on an exchange instead of in a cold wallet off exchange, it’s obviously done for ease and convenience and fear of losing the private key but we have seen so many instances of it that the penny has to drop. It’s probably a better baloney rather than a bank, but more like loads of art collectors leaving their master pieces in a warehouse that they don’t really know how safe it is. And even worse several neighbours have had the art robbed over and over.

    Another area that the regulators will probably demand is appropriate insurance cover. It’s iinxredibly and that will drive up costs.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,623 ✭✭✭maninasia


    Yeah Proof of Reserves seems well dodgy.

    WTF does that even mean.


    I belive crypto lending platforms will break thru sooner than later, maybe in developing markets first for poorer people who need payday type loans.


    If many assets are formally on the blockchain then it starts to become a lot more useful, for instance you could then use that asset as collateral for other loans. Easy to value branded objects such as cars could be where to start.

    And crypto does have potential for crowd investors to change the nature of investing in some high profile assets.

    Maybe NFTs could make a comeback sooner than expected.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,143 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    bDefinitely pros in that approach. The biggest issue I would see for entitiesto do this would be not only having to comply with crypto regulations+ they would qoso have to comply with lending. codes of practice which are different in each country. There would be stringent requirements for arrears handling, complaints handling would have to have call centres; strict timeframes for letters etc. it’s bloody difficult and not something that any crypto firm would used to.

    Not only that huge capital outlay in funding the loans with a quite a hefty default rate. They then have to have asset collection and sales. And how would they be able to offer the loans at significantly lower rates with all the additional compliance requirements. We have seen the absolute horror show from lending firms offering huge coupons for assets which ended up destroying the firm. The loans would have to priced with a buffer to cover default and then to collect arrears has to be done in a very rigid manner.

    I think I said it previously, that the possibility to make way more money by utilising the assets that you are lending out. I got the first retail credit firm authorised in Ireland and they were quite successful in the non bank mortgages. They received major funding and invested into mortgage based securities and 5 major bonds using the mortgaged properties as collateral. Perhaps something similar but In a crypto package. But definitely in the EU crypto asset service providers would never have experienced the operational compliance disclosures that are required. There is also the risk that the digital assets they would hold as collateral dramatically in value meaning the solvency and liquidity requirements of the regulators would be breached and then a default event occurs.

    There is a lot of great ideas being discussed at the moment but what the participants need to realise is the landscape has and will completely change in the next 18 months making the roadmaps maybe not quite as attractive or straight to product as they previously have been



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,143 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Bit of excitement over the weekend when news broke that SBF secretly funded Th Block news site which always claimed to be completely independent and unbiased news. https://twitter.com/coffeebreak_yt/status/1601296842826080256?s=61&t=u7JjCQj1IiyjO-mfCeIHE


    But even more news worthy was Coffeezilla making SBF admit that he committed a fraud by transferring 5 billion us from client funds from ftx to alameda at the end. How he got I’m was only focusing on mononucleosis wrapped, non staked and non optioned btc which user agreement saiid that ftx can not move them under any circumstances . All clearly laid out here https://twitter.com/coffeebreak_yt/status/1600703441726164994?s=61&t=u7JjCQj1IiyjO-mfCeIHEQ



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭erlichbachman


    At this stage it will be an absolute miracle of SBF stays out of jail, market manipulation and gambling with customer funds will not go down too well. He's already stated he doesn't have all his data so I expect there to be a lot of memory loss at any upcoming hearings.

    He doesn't seem to me the kind of guy who would do well in an American prison



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  • Posts: 2,725 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It’s mad how there was a Signal group where CZ Binance, SBF, Paolo from Tether (not the CEO….), Jesse from Kraken were pretty much making decisions amongst themselves. Usually making decisions that left retail suckers out of pocket. It’s the most centralised thing in the world, and I get the feeling we’ve only seen the start of the unraveling.

    My own “theory” is that Tether is largely backed by stuff like Tron and BNB, and that’s why Coinbase are offering to swap tether for usdc with no fees. Tether was used for capital flight and money laundering from places like Russia, Iran and China. It’s all going to come crashing down.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭erlichbachman


    Has that actually been verified? I mean on one hand they are competitors, but he nature of the crypto market is such that they all have a vested interest so it would make sense, however the notion that a 250k transaction would jeopardise the coin seems a bit off.



  • Posts: 2,725 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]



    Jesse from Kraken is saying it’s fake news. He’s also starting to suggest in roundabout ways that Binance may be insolvent. It does seem unusual that CZ would be telling SBF to not execute a 250k trade to destabilise the price of Tether.

    I think it’s been a really interesting week in crypto - the Binance “audit” has a load of rivals out suggesting things are not as they seem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    If it's true, it's very serious

    It's like a bunch of college kids playing business while being utterly ignorant of competition law or risk frameworks.



  • Posts: 2,725 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The DoJ moves extremely slowly but this would be massive if charges are brought.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,814 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    Yeah, it makes me think that the FTX downfall may be down to sheer stupidity and arrogance. I have a hard time believing someone would do something deliberately criminal in such an open way, such as not having proper accounting controls and going to US congress. It just reeks of arrogance where people think they are the smartest people in the room and everyone else doesn't get it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    That said, I have no issues if they are fully prosecuted. In finance and tax and competition law, ignorance isn't innocence. They are about to learn a lesson that they can't "oops I didn't know" their way out of this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,814 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    Of course, I expect him to be locked up in the future. There is a lot of outrage about why he isn't in jail straight away, it takes time to build a case and people being angry online isn't a reason for someone to be in prison.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,465 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    He should have been picked up as a flight risk and extradited back to the US right away. There are legal obligations as a CEO, even one operating off shore to American clients no less.

    The irony might be for all his Trump hating, he might get him more support if people see the Democratic Party going easy on him. Especially given his political donations.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭erlichbachman


    I dont get it, reuters put out an article basically saying they haven't actually spoken to the authorities but have spoken to people in and around the case, and the authorities may or may not prosecute CZ and others



  • Posts: 2,725 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    SBF arrested.The movie is going to be awesome.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,814 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    Quickbooks as their accounting system, I guess I expect my criminal masterminds to be a bit more clever.

    https://twitter.com/TheStreet/status/1602693770524377091?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭Shapey Fiend


    Allegedly he donated an equal amount to Republicans, albeit anonymously. Of course this is according to SBF and the mans forever talking complete twaddle.

    I don't think the Bahamas extradite to the US, which is why he went there. He let every Bahamian customer withdraw their funds and likely paid off a lot of government over there too so it remains to be seen if he doesn't weasel his way out of it somehow.



  • Posts: 2,725 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I’m a committed nocoiner, but I’d recommend you liquidate everything you have on Binance and get it sent back to your bank account. Pay tax on it, etc, if you need to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭erlichbachman


    I have very little on CEX's, but Binance seems to be holding up pretty well at the moment, 60B in cold storage apparently



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,465 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    As soon as they announced that, people where questioning the liabilities they and their users hold. I don’t expect them to go bust but as always it’s better to be holding your own assets.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,465 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Like an atheist outside a church shouting there is no God, yet never to realise they are more fundamentalist than the people they criticise.

    Bear markets are when you should be buying in. If you want out then you wait for a bull market.



  • Administrators Posts: 54,316 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I wonder if these 2 things (extending the investigation and SBF arrest) are linked.

    They have SBF over a barrel, I wonder what he knows.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,729 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The paper is on the wall. The bubble has burst.


    You might still be able to recover some of your investments but you need to withdraw asap. Waiting will mean you get between less and nothing out of your original investment



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    I'm pretty sure you said the same in 2018. Not saying you're wrong of course, perhaps it has this time.

    Or perhaps people never learn and keep returning to casinos.

    Conversely as for those saying "buy now", I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole until it's at least 50% less than current.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,462 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    I love listening to proper arguments pro and anti Crypto, but this type of post is the equivalent of "To the moon"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,893 ✭✭✭sparrowcar




  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    It does not matter if its a bear or bull market, you should buy when assets go on sale but since you are not investing but rather trading in a currency with no intrinsic value even that does not matter. There is nothing wrong with having a flutter, everyone does it from time to time, but confusing it for actual investing, failing to diversify the risk and being surprised when it goes pear shaped is an expensive exercise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Over my years I've realised I am not actually investing in crypto, but in people going nuts for it every few years



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,623 ✭✭✭maninasia


    Three to four year cycle, good money to be made. Invest monthly in the down months such as now....This how I picked up some ETH at 80 USD in the last cycle (and more than recovered my horrific initial 80% losses by investing at the top at the end of 2017). If I ran away then I would just have screwed myself completely.

    Rough rule of thumb is things are pretty 'down' when close to or below the top of the previous cycle. That goes for both BTC and ETH currently.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,623 ✭✭✭maninasia


    Ethereum L2 is picking up well.

    Future looks bright for network usage.


    What it is being used for I don't know.

    But they are being used!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,762 ✭✭✭el diablo


    We're all in this psy-op together.🤨



  • Posts: 2,725 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The best thing about crypto is the way it can always be used to bring in new plebs. MtGox wiped out the first round of mostly drug dealers, libertarians and men who wanted to pay for child abuse. 2017 was the peak of crypto - Walton Chain being my personal favourite. 2021 saw Bitcoin reach almost 70k, and the idea of NFTs becoming almost an idea.

    The second money was sent into any of them was the second it was cashed out. Like it's not exactly a complex scam.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    It worked on and off. In one example I selected coins where you could get "a lot" of them per dollar. I noticed friends were more likely to buy an alt where you could get a "million" of it rather than 0.2 of a coin.

    Stuff like that. Most who pile into crypto every 3 or 4 years aren't experts or specialists, they are just ordinary people who buy stuff in a frenzy. I consider what they'd be attracted to. And then there's the overall view that it doesn't matter how bad crypto is, as long as people can make stupid gains from over-exuberance and panic drops, then people will always be attracted to it regardless.

    Basically I'm investing in people going nuts every few years rather than the underlying fundamentals of crypto itself if that makes any sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭erlichbachman


    You aren't actually coming across there as well as you think you are.

    It makes sense if you believe crypto is a ponzi and you are willing to put your money in with a belief that there will always be someone coming after you, that's basically what you are saying, you are a willing contributor towards what you believe to be a crypto ponzi because you have no understanding or belief in the product, but will outsmart it because you understand it to be a ponzi?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,386 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Yes. For example, look at Doge, it was made as a joke, it has no supply cap, it's makes no logical sense if you look at it from a proper investing point of view. But if you looked at it through the eyes of some dumb kid caught up in a crypto hype wave who wanted to make money, it did.

    I'm not just speaking in hindsight, I shared views about this 2017, 2018, etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,465 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Market cap doesn’t represent value. There are plenty in the top twenty that you could cull and it would be of no loss the overall market, probably better for it. The other side of this is that there are others that are completely undervalued. The space needs more informed users.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,037 ✭✭✭Slideways


    Every single coin out there is over valued. They all have no fundamental use apart from some marketing hype and fools chasing the magic beans story



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,143 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Would instaneous transfer of for example stablecoin to anywhere in the world be a fundamental use as opposed to snail pace of fiat transfer?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,462 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    Isn't Revolut instant? What's the advantage to me paying someone in Bitcoin via an app versus revolut via an app? Both are instant



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,037 ✭✭✭Slideways


    Indeed. I just transferred money for my nephews from Perth WA to Dublin and my sister had it instantly



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,143 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    Revolut international transfers take anywhere from 3-5 business days with the larger transfers taking up to 10. Revolut to Revolut takes about 45 minutes. Charges are considerable at over .3%. Money sent. Institutions wouldn’t have Revolut Also getting large amount into Revolut is difficult.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,551 ✭✭✭kaymin


    Sepa inst is instantaneous transfers across the Sepa payment system. Ireland is behind on its introduction but it's used widely across the rest of the EU.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,143 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    I’m nearly sure eu paperless transfers take up to two working days. Revolut card to card is 30 minutes.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,551 ✭✭✭kaymin


    Maximum time for transaction to complete is 10 seconds. Max transfer is 100k though. Available 24/7/365

    https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/what-we-do/sepa-instant-credit-transfer



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