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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    A breeder reactor. A few pages ago they were the answer to the worlds energy problems. Yet they make up a small percentage of the worlds output. Hence there must be something wrong with them. Thats the exact argument being put forward against wind capacity.


    I dont think I mentioned knowledge, rather lack of logic. For another explanation, see above.

    We have a little offshore, more would generate more. Slightly more would deliver slightly more. Significantly more would deliver significantly more. I'm sure you can see the pattern forming :)

    Also, what about when our slightly more is delivering significantly more due to increased wind? Whats wrong with exporting it then to import it now? Or store it then to consume it now? Why does it have to be a zero sum game 24x7x365?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Nothing. And they are all working on their carbon and ecological footprints?

    Your point was around being located elsewhere, outside of Ireland. That we should push their footprint somewhere else. And the fact is that, from a global perspective, Ireland is a good place to have them



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    We can export it- if the other end of the extension lead wants it. There’s also a vice Versa to that argument.

    Simple question for ya:

    So on a day like today with wind generation the way it is- how many offshore turbines or for that matter how many offshore and onshore turbines would we need to be providing 80% of our grids needs?

    When you take a stab at that- tell me how much that would cost.

    Again for the record I want to point out I’m not anti wind- I’m just pro common sense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    You bring up a valid point here. Why are we swallowing the carbon emissions when most of the data centre traffic is for the UK and Europe? We should be offsetting our carbon emissions against the countries that benefit from us providing these data centres. That seems fair to me.

    I'd also point out that we are pretty much a perfect data centre location due to a number of environmental factors, such as air quality (less filtration needed), temperate climate (free cooling v chillers), grid stability (unfortunately this is no longer as good as it once was), metro fibre connection to the US (reduces latency) and a host of other reasons.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    If we close those two plants in the timelines indicated I'd suggest moving to a warmer climate for the winter months here because it'll get real cold real quick with no power.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭paddyisreal


    Ireland is suited to data centers, we have one of the best climates for them. Is this another Irish green nimbism ?. I don't get your last point on the Victorian era, the fact is data centers are essential whether you like it or not. Try run your 999 service without one



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I would say that they are buying fudged credits rather than paying towards renewables tbh. There are probably a dozen companies each claiming every tree planted in their name.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    You don't think the other end of the extension wants power during the summer?

    I have never insisted that we should have 80% (or 100%) of our power coming from renewables 100% of the time.

    What I have said is that we export and import based on our input and output. On a day like today we would use the money/power/whatever that we made during the days when the wind did blow and we had a surplus.

    The more, in this case wind, capacity we have, the more excess we will have to sell.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    The biggest problem is still cooling and while you might not think it right now, we are not cool during the summer.

    The other points can all be dealt with by investment in the other regions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I'm not for one minute saying that the world doesnt need data centres, I use several of them all day every day.

    What I am saying is that we cant just say "we need them" and thats it, they just sit there sucking up power. We need to make them more efficient, make them require less power to run.

    We didnt think horses were good enough and so we made cars, then better cars. Things dont get better by just letting them sit there, so you incentivize people to improve them by charging the crap out them until they do. Not saying "oh thank you sir for putting your DC in my country"



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Moneypoint and Tarbert won't be shutting down until the replacement generation comes online.

    Plus once they do shut, the sites will be changed over to support renewables/hydrogen etc as the grid infrastructure is already there, similar to whats happening at Shannonbridge



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Cool, still doesn't change the fact there's a very poor case for them from an economic and energy use point of view

    That being said, they are getting squeezed around the world in terms of locations they can be located in so maybe we'll start to see some progress on the energy consumption side of things.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,126 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Have you ever considered that you are wasting your time posting here, when with your extensive knowledge of nuclear that time could be better spent pointing out to the countries that are currently building their first nuclear plants and those planning, or in the process of adding to, their numbers are not aware of facts you are. ?


    What these facts are I have no idea, but I imagine they have to considerably much better than the none facts you have provided here when comparing nuclear to wind. The 30 gigawatt ESB plan here to provide 6.3 Gigawatts, just for the offshore part, will cost a minimum of €83 Bn. repeated every 27 years. Poland just accepted Westinghouse`s bid of $31.3 Bn for 6.6 Gigawatts for a 60 year plant. 20% of the offshore section of the 30 Gigawatt wind plan. And that is without the unknown costs of hydrogen.


    Neither have you shown anything to counter that, even as we are, our latest onshore strike price is basically the same for "the dreadful deal behind the world`s most expensive power plant" or that under this offshore plan that when compared to the average strike price for U.K. offshore the strike price here for consumers will be much higher again than "the dreadful deal".



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    2 bits on interconnectors

    Firstly, there's a bit on the French one on RTE this evening for anyone curious

    And ESRI have released a study on the North/South interconnector




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I keep saying that educating people on the effects of climate change and the impacts we're causing, is vitally important. We've seen increased environmental education happening in schools lately and now the gift of knowledge is being given to all 160 TD's by Friends of the Earth

    All Government ministers and TDs will receive a free copy of Greta Thunberg’s The Climate Book to help them brush up on their climate knowledge.

    Thunberg gathered essays from more than 100 scientists, activists and frontline observers for her book, which also features her own writings.

    Oisín Coghlan, of FOE, said the gesture was intended to help those who had gaps in their knowledge.

    “It’s a really good book for people like TDs who are generalists by the very definition of their role,” he said.

    “Some of them get to specialise a bit on Oireachtas committees but we need all our legislators from all parties to be aware of the challenges and the possibilities of climate action.

    “We don’t expect them to sit down and read it cover to cover in one sitting but it’s the kind of book you can dip into and in five or 10 minutes learn something new.”




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    One of the coolest things about wind farms is the amount they can give back to local communities through the windfarm funds. Galway alone got €842,000 last year




  • Registered Users Posts: 15,126 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    I can see your pattern. The same as every other green`s. The belief that free money trees really do exist.

    Criticising everything other than wind, yet still not able to put a price on your pattern in comparison to any other source.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This is what everyone is doing. I’ve raised it before on this thread, and given an illustration of the scale of the issue. Much of the emissions reduction we are seeing is not real - it’s just on paper. It was raised at COP as a serious concern - that the world now seems more focussed on carbon accounting than real carbon reductions.

    This should improve though as the large global exchanges launch verified carbon credits. Once this market is large enough (and LSEG launching a carbon credit platform is a big step) then only ‘real’ carbon credits will be acceptable to investors in these companies and in their TCFD reporting

    irrespective of credits though, the world has to have data centres. Where they are in the world makes no difference to the global position which, ultimately, is what counts (not just Ireland’s). And the fact is that we have one of the best physical environments for them.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The EU is not stopping its roll out of new interconnectors, this one if 600MW between Tunisia and Italy




  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    How much do you think we can import at present?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande



    17:30: Wind 630 MW of 7008 MW (8.9%), Interconnectors 1,266 MW (18%)

    Wonder what the gas linepack is after a week of this, It is not displayed.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    Who is getting the money from private companies ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    were cooler than most places and rain and wind too. Or is the wind not blowing into the data centres only into fans ? They are able to shed tones more heat here only relying on aircon at some times. You can pretty much environmentally cool a data centre in Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    You'd be wrong there. We are cool during the summer l, if you don't believe me look up some ASHRE charts and fill your boots.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    I would tend to agree, it should be assigned to the country that consumes the data. The same should be done for farm produce, thats what they do with oil products.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Arklow Bank Phase 1 opened in 2004. In shallow water up to 20m deep. 7 x 3.6MW turbines 25.2MW , though one got zapped recently.

    Arklow Phase II should be up by 2028, €2.8Bn for 800MW



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The noose is tightening for aviation, slowly but surely

    After France announced an effective ban on short haul flights where rail options exist, Belgium have announced similar measures with a few additional points including going after private jets


    Currently, aircraft using Brussels Airport have to pay a tax determined by the noise level generated at take-off and landing. Until now, small planes such as private jets have been exempt.

    As of 1 April 2023, taxes will not only be dependent on noise, but on air pollution, greenhouse gas emissions and the destination of the flight.

    Duties will increase for flights shorter than 500 km (310 miles).

    In April 2022, Belgium introduced a new €2 tax per passenger on EU routes and a new boarding tax to encourage alternatives to short haul flights.

    For flights under 500 km from Brussels airport, this tax rises to €10 per passenger. For destinations further afield, it is between €2 and €4. Transit and transfer passengers are exempt from the charge.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Ignoring the childish tone of your posts for a minute (but not much longer!)

    Did you ever consider that possibly you are wrong, based on the fact that I and the ESB believe in investing in wind capacity for Ireland?

    Why is it repeated every 27 years? Is this some Cinderella thing where it all disappears at midnight? That'll be disappointing for the people working on the infrastructure at the time.

    Why is China planning a 43.3 GW facility in the Taiwan Strait? Why do they already have the largest in at Jiuquan? It it perhaps because they have half of the worlds potential capacity of wind? Is it because they aim for 1/3 of all capacity to be from renewables?

    Why did Poland produce 1/3 of their energy demand from wind during 2022? Why are Vestas building 75+ 15MW turbines for the Baltic Power project?


    Maybe everyone is wrong except you huh?



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Just a reminder hydrogen storage is dirt cheap.

    €800m was the 2007-2014 price for 46 TWh of natural gas storage in Bergermeer. (4.1 billion normal cubic meter (BCM) )

    Even if you de-rate it to by a third to compensate for hydrogen's lower density and de-rate again for 60% efficiency of CCGT or fuel cells then it should be good for 10TWh of electricity.


    At €800m who cares if the overall electrical efficiency means you only get back 40% of the surplus renewables, because otherwise that surplus wouldn't be collected.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    So we dont have air conditioning in Irish data centres? We are comparatively cool to some places. That doesn't mean we are cool.

    I better go tell the lads down in the server room that there is no need for it to have its own dedicated A/C so.



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