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Softening house market?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    I highly doubt they can claw it back off you, anyone here please correct me if I'm wrong but I was always under the opinion that if you got the HTB and subsequently sold the house on then you wont have to pay any HTB back to the state.



  • Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭manniot2


    There is a 5 year clawback. So if you got 20k and stayed 1 year, you owe revenue 16k



  • Administrators Posts: 53,832 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    If you sell within 1 year you must pay back 100%, if within 2 years 80%, 3 years 60%, 4 years 40% and 5 years 20%.



  • Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭SimpleDimple


    Is that for Chinese people buying to live in, or investment properties, do you know?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    It's depressing, isn't it?

    But regarding the Daft reports, if they all came out saying that prices were going down, they would drive prices down because people would make lower offers, or put off buying for a while.

    So they are "reliable" - but IMO they are reliably pushing prices up. Of course when prices drop, they will report this, but it will be after the fact rather than before it as is happening with price rises.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,566 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    With a lot of them value houses there would be serious demand from second time buyers so the HTB discount would not be as much. Owner was probably not HTB either

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 827 ✭✭✭farmingquestion


    Still too much cash out there. All this talk of cost of living crisis yet towns and shops have never been so busy.

    The need to kill the value of assets is growing by the month.

    The value of the things that make up most of the Irish wealth is cars and properties and neither have had any hit to their prices. It's easy to spend money when you're sitting on 150k unrealised gains in a property. It's like money in the bank.

    Also need to see unemployment rise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭FedoraTheAura


    The flip could happen quickly. If people are churning through the last of their pandemic savings, once they’re gone, the spending taps are turned off and it’s big trouble quite suddenly.

    Just reading about the US jobs market and peoples sentiment is the economy is headed into massive trouble, yet most feel very secure in their jobs, expect large pay increases and spending is up the last few months. It’s bizarre.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,573 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    As someone who lives in Vancouver, Ireland has a long way to go yet to get that bad.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Viscount Aggro


    People are out spending like theres no tomorrow.

    Shops, pubs, restaurants are packed.

    This is typical Irish behaviour, party up to the end, then despair when the SHTF next year.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Also record number of items being bought on credit and get now pay later. Next year is going to be a lot worse than the government are banking on



  • Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭jimmybobbyschweiz


    Who would have guessed that a pandemic and a war would have been excellent for the economy instead of hurting it. Irish people never wealthier, savings, rents and property prices at all time highs, unemployment incredibly low and corporate tax booming? As much of a permabear I am, the facts are totally against my view and things have actually never been better. Unless perhaps it's all too good to be true....

    Post edited by jimmybobbyschweiz on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,234 ✭✭✭herbalplants


    It has always been the case every year. People maxed out on their credit cards. But they will need to pay it back.

    Living the life



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,640 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    I agree.

    Seems fine in principle but could you imagine the political blowback?



  • Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭manniot2


    This is a very wealthy country, there are storm clouds but there always are. Property is expensive, as it is in all prosperous countries.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭OEP


    Do you have a source for that - the record number of items being bought on credit?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,190 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Of course not.

    You can find sources that say that Irish people have record levels of savings, record levels of cash in the bank.


    You can find sources that say property and rent prices are going up, albeit the rise is slowing.


    What you won't find it the opposite, despite people saying for the past 5 years that it was obviously happening.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,631 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/slight-dip-in-savings-rate-but-consumers-continue-to-put-money-aside-42198885.html


    In fact Irish people are still increasing their savings, just at slower levels than earlier in the year. Any post on this forum that talks about 'Irish behaviour' is usually disparaging and invariably full of crap.



  • Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭IWW2900


    The lack of knowledge in here makes me laugh.

    Of course people are saving more. Right now they are reigning in their spending. Its one of the main purposes of raising rates. Central banks are trying to slow down spending, reducing demand and bringing down the price of everything...fighting inflation.

    But they are also trying to cause job losses and deflate asset prices, which will happen. They will just keep rates high until achieved.



  • Registered Users Posts: 753 ✭✭✭dontmindme


    All properties->05/12/22 to 11/12/22

    All Dublin

    12 Price changes

    07 Decreases

    05 Increases


    Rest of Ireland

    46 Price changes

    38 Decreases

    08 Increases



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,566 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    If you read the article there is some drivel in it. Newspapers seem to specialise in drivel since they went online.

    Talking about Irish savers recieving 1/4 of the rate on savings than elsewhere in the EU. 17euro in interest/10k compared to 69/10k elsewhere in the EU.

    Four times nothing is still nothing. There was another one about two weeks ago. ''High earners to get nearly twice the rate of unemployment benefit''

    The new welfare proposal was for people to get 60% of there earning for six months capped at 450 euro. When were people earning 750/week high earners. This type of sh!te annoys me.

    It is sensationalism at it worst. Just causing division and panic in society

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭kaymin


    Top story on Bloomberg this evening:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-12/sweden-s-free-falling-property-market-triggers-worst-slump-in-eu?srnd=premium-europe

    Sweden’s Free-Falling Property Market Triggers Worst Economic Slump in EU

    • Home values in Sweden are now down 15% from their peak
    • Commercial real estate has been identified as the main risk


    Property listings in a real estate agent's window in Gothenburg, Sweden.Photographer: Nora Lorek/Bloomberg

    ByNiclas Rolander, Ott Ummelas, and Kati Pohjanpalo

    December 12, 2022 at 10:00 AM GMTUpdated onDecember 12, 2022 at 10:05 AM GMT

    Soaring inflation and rising borrowing costs have sent housing prices on a steep downward trajectory across the world, but one of the places where this trend is playing out the fastest is Sweden. After a decades-long property boom fueled by cheap credit, a shortage of housing and interest-only mortgages, the Nordic region’s largest economy is now in the midst of a sharp housing market contraction that threatens to deepen a looming economic slump.

    Home prices are down as much as 12% from their peak earlier this year when adjusted for seasonal variations — or as much as 15% in nominal terms. The plunge is happening so quickly that real-world declines could exceed the 20% drop anticipated by forecasters.

    The market is undergoing “a dramatic change,” said Annika Winsth, chief economist at Nordea Bank Abp. 

    Swedish Housing Market Has Shed Most Pandemic-Era Gains

    Source: Norges Bank, Bloomberg

    Note: House price indexes. January 2020=100.

    The double whammy of mounting costs of living and falling home values is pushing consumers to watch their spending, which is in turn creating even more economic pain. Sweden is now at risk of falling into the worst recession among the 27 economies that make up the European Union.

    The Nordic country isn’t alone in its housing woes. After booming during the pandemic, central bank rate hikes have triggered a fall in global property values. A handful of formerly frothy markets, including in Canada, Australia and New Zealand, are in the midst of declines, and more than a dozen developed economies are either in a real-estate downturn — defined as two consecutive quarters of falling prices — or about to sink into one. 

    To Swedes, the situation is especially striking as recent corrections have been shallow and short-lived, and many young home buyers have never experienced a crash.

    Real estate professionals are also adapting to this more modest environment. In Stockholm, where a regulated rental market means that applicants must sometimes wait as long as a decade to get an apartment — prompting many would-be renters to become buyers instead — realtor Emma Holst says deal-making has slowed considerably.

    “You don’t sell every property after the first viewing, as it used to be,” said Holst, who works at Lansforsakringar Fastighetsformedling in central Stockholm. 

    Swedish Mortgage Costs Have Almost Tripled

    Source: the Riksbank, Bloomberg

    Nearly real-time data provided by Booli, a property listing site run by mortgage lender SBAB, offers another look at the extent to which Sweden’s once-hot market has cooled. In general, ads now stay on the site for twice as long as they did a year ago. Detached houses in Stockholm were listed for an average of 40 days in November, up from 15 days a year earlier. In the country’s southernmost Skane region, listing times increased to 53 days, up from 18 a year prior. 

    While many countries in the EU are struggling with similar problems, Sweden’s housing market is among the most vulnerable. Roughly 64% of people in the nation of 10 million own their homes, yet most don’t have long-term fixed-rate mortgages, making them sensitive to interest-rate changes. “Monetary policy has a faster pass-through here than in other economies,” said Maria Wallin Fredholm, an economist at Swedbank AB.

    After a series of interest rate hikes by Sweden’s central bank, the biggest fear is now that consumer spending will grind to a halt. Household debt amounts to more than 90% of Sweden’s gross domestic product, meaning higher borrowing costs will have a severe impact on consumption. This is already starting to happen: retail sales are plunging and lending growth is waning. There are “no positive signals from the domestic economy, and especially not from households or the housing market,” said Nordea’s Winsth. 

    Riksbank's Worst-Case Scenario Haunts Housing Market

    Sources: the Riksbank, Bloomberg

    Should inflation continue to accelerate, the housing situation may become even more dire. Sweden’s central bank recently speculated that ongoing inflation could force the Riksbank to raise its key interest rate from 2.5% to above 4.5%. If such aggressive tightening were to happen, said Helena Bornevall, a senior economist at Svenska Handelsbanken AB, it could mean an additional 10% decline in property values.

    Holcim

    If the housing market collapses, the country’s banks would be relatively well shielded. That’s because lending is based on a borrowers’ capacity to pay off their debts, and Swedes are supported by a generous social welfare system that helps them through unemployment and illness. 

    Swedish Households Turn Gloomier on Outlook for Home Prices

    The real risk to lenders is commercial real estate, as commercial property lending accounts for between 16% and 36% of major banks’ loan stocks.

    For individual borrowers struggling with housing payments, there aren’t many good options, especially since it’s very rare to settle debt on a mortgage in Sweden. A mortgage is “the last thing you stop paying,” said Nordea’s Winsth, noting that people who default carry the designation for the rest of their lives. “It’s not like in parts of the US,” she added, “where you can hand in the keys and walk away.”



  • Registered Users Posts: 690 ✭✭✭bamayang


    Any chance you could also add the quantity of properties available on daft as a total? Would be very interesting to see alongside those numbers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 210 ✭✭Mr Hindley


    These are my latest stats on total supply, if that helps. It counts all properties, incl sites.




  • Registered Users Posts: 192 ✭✭IWW2900


    Similar articles coming to Ireland soon. I suspect we are already underway, data just not reflecting yet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭manniot2


    Looks like many countries experienced the same Covid bounce to residential property as we did. That 2020/2021 increase of 10% will probably be reversed in the coming months but hard to see much more than that based on supply/demand dynamics. I spoke to an agent recently that told me you will not get a 2021 price for your house now - for some reason people went daft in that period post lockdown.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭quokula


    There don't seem to be any stats that exist to indicate increases in consumer debt - as mentioned above the stats show the opposite.

    There is definitely an increase in BNPL offerings from retailers, but this is more a case of service providers like Klarna coming into the market making it an easy option for retailers to add for competitiveness. Companies innovating in **** business practices to extract as much profit as possible is a constant for all market conditions. It will be regulated away if it ever shows signs of getting out of hand.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,807 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    That doesn't actually say anything about there being a total increase in purchases on credit. I'd expect virtually all buy now pay later purchases are replacing credit card purchases - credit replacing credit, just at a much lower interest rate.



This discussion has been closed.
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