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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    I’ve already told you I’m not sold on nuclear.

    There is no alternative to fossil fuels on a winters day when there’s no wind.

    That’s a fact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭paddyisreal


    In all fairness you work and have been in data centers so you really shoud have a better understand how they work. Data centers are extremely efficient, most of them have been built in the last ten years and use the most modern technology. You do know that large data centers are proven to be more efficient than running local servers. It's actually in the data centers interest in using less power as they have to pay for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭paddyisreal


    Please explain about this fantasy stored wind power and how Britain and Ireland have used it over the last week ? Another green wet dream that doesn't exist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭ps200306


    Quick back-of-a-fag-packet calculation. €2.8Bn borrowed over 25 years at 7% with a 10% ROI (which is very low compared to the last decade), for 800MW with a 35% capacity factor... gives you a price of €108 per MWh. I don't for a second believe it will be that low -- it's not much higher than current onshore prices and inflation is roaring. The venture vultures who fund these things are more used to 20% returns in the last decade. But even if it magically came in at that "bargain basement" figure, do you actually think €108/MWh is a good price? That's before you divert some of it to hydrogen production and generation with horrible round trip efficiencies and huge additional infrastructure costs.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    We can use up to 20% of current emissions until 2030 and dropping an average 1% a year to 2050. So we can use NG and other hydrogen carriers (and hydrogen) for a wee while yet while weaning ourselves off the fossil fuels.

    €800m was the 2007-2014 price for 46 TWh of natural gas storage in Bergermeer. (4.1 billion normal cubic meter (BCM) )

    Even if you de-rate it to by a third to compensate for hydrogen's lower density and de-rate again for 60% efficiency of CCGT or fuel cells then it should be good for 10TWh of electricity. Just a reminder hydrogen storage is dirt cheap.

    By 2030 it should be possible to retro-fit combustors on existing NG turbines to use pure hydrogen. Or we could use a mix of NG and hydrogen. So very little new capital expenditure.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,126 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Considering that the ESB and you believe in investing in wind capacity for Ireland, why do you keep posting rubbish attempting to avoid answering how much this investment will cost ?

    Is it because like Poland and offshore wind turbines you do not really have a clue ?


    2021 81% of Poland`s energy was provided by fossil fuels, 72% from coal. Wind provided 11.6% in 2021 (Source: Energy Market Information Center), not 33.3%.


    Offshore wind turbines have a lifespan of 27 years, (good luck with that with them being in one of the harshest environments on the planet), what do you think is going to be providing generation after 27 years. That they will just continue to do so for all time ?


    A wind farm with 43.3 GW nameplate capacity based on U.K. offshore rolling capacity will provide 18.6 GW. Bloomberg November 2021."China`s Climate Goals Hinge on a $440 Billion Nuclear Buildout. China is planning at least 150 new reactors in the next 15 years." 15 are under construction this year. Two more have just been sanctioned that will generate over 1.2 GW each. Those 150 new reactors within the next 15 years will, generate according to China, generate 246 GW.

    Now maybe you could answer how much this investment in this ESB plan you favour will be that you have been asked repeatedly and ignored and what do you think is going to provide the 6.3 GW for domestic supply and the 6.3 GW supply for hydrogen after the 27 year lifespan of those turbines ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,126 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    According to that link the CapEx for that 800MW will be €2.5 Bn.

    On that basis the ESB 30 GW offshore plan just became €10.75 Bn. more expensive than the U.K. average, and would now be €93.75 Bn for just the offshore section alone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    Like most thing economy of scale. Yes there are more severs but it's easier to cool them in a data centre. Having 6 racks in your own server room is inefficient via aircon. Cloud computing is the way forward. Well were actually going backwards in a respect Terminals into a Centralised system via a data centre. Just like the old days. OFC we won't be using token ring. As I have pointed out passive cooling is what Ireland does best. It's a no brainer. What Ireland needs to get agreement on is hosting this data and getting carbon credits for it. Just like Oil, Gas is only counted when it's used In the country that purchased it not the producer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭The Real President Trump


    And again with the goal post shift

    Excess renewables, excess, excess, excess = mal-investment

    This simple points are still too complex for ye of the John Charles McQuaid Green Religion to grasp



  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭The Real President Trump


    Please demonstrate where all this power is stored, actually stored, like is there a pumped hydro plant secretly under every turbine ? ?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭The Real President Trump


    You're asking how much a damaged and to be decommissioned plant produced in the last 10 years, that's an imbecilic questions

    You may aswell ask how much have the turbines in this graveyard produced




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭paddyisreal




  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    What grid currently uses hydrogen as a storage medium generated 100% by renewables- to then generate electricity for when renewables aren’t available.

    It doesn’t exist.

    Fossil fuels are needed for days like today when renewables generate close to zero- there just isn’t an alternative.

    This is something you and a few others on here continually ignore.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I wanted a link to an Irish DC that is cooled by "free cooling"

    You provided a link to one that sometimes uses free cooling.

    My house has free heating, well only in summer, when its hot.

    Who said "only" AC? You are pretending that DCs use only Free Cooling when in fact there is power consumed during this free cooling and they dont rely on free cooling, or is your claim that none of these DCs have powered cooling that they also rely on?



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Well not really, because its highly unlikely that all your wind capacity will evaporate overnight, yet thats exactly what happens with nuclear, unless your plan is that we have double the nuclear capacity we need, as backup?



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Is there a problem with building new infrastructure suddenly?

    Where is all the nuclear waste stored?



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    You export the excess, yunno, like every other commodity we produce in Ireland?



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    We are blue in the face explaining that you will have more than you need sometimes and less than you need other times. You export when you have more and import when you have less.

    Please explain how your nuclear plant produces power when its out of action for a decade?

    Please explain how fossil fuels produce power when they are all gone?



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Sure they are efficient and definitely more efficient than multiple local server rooms, but whats wrong with wanting them to be more efficient exactly?

    They can be more efficient if they use more renewable energy to cool but also fundamentally if they dont need to actively cool.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭paddyisreal


    Another green who can't answer a simple question. You mentioned storage numerous times but when questioned can't back it up ( the irony ) . I never mentioned nuclear you must be mistaken again. Why can't you just admit that with the weather we have had and Britain in the last 10 days wind is not worth a ****. Thank God for Gas,oil, turf etc otherwise we would be up the creek. Just face facts



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Data centres are now a foundational part of the modern world economy.


    Without them there is modern global economy.


    They will be put somewhere, it may as well be in a country with the most suitable climate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Are you against the offshore wind turbines in Galway?


    Those maps from that specific day aren't encouraging.


    While I accept that wind turbines are vulnerable to calm days most of the year it is not a problem, winters need to be looked at though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    And local community groups have gone blue in the face saying that whilst they accept the environmental degradation and loss of visual amenity caused by wind farms if the power generated is for regional / national use. But they object hugely to this being foisted on them by large corporations that want to sell and export this power outside the state. It's curious how green thinking and rationale has changed - it used to be about self sufficiency, reduce & reuse etc. Now it promotes Green Tech and big business. The Greens have lost their way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭KildareP


    If other countries have excess to readily give us, why would they need to buy our excess wind energy in the first place?

    Conversely, if they need to buy our excess wind energy, how/why are they going to have any excess ready to give us when we fall short?



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Because neither demand nor supply is fixed and constant?

    For example, other countries have much higher demand in summer than we do, since we don't really have AC.

    However their winters are not as cold as ours, so they don't have the same winter demand that we do.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo



    So you dont want renewable or nuclear energy, what do you want?

    Unless you deny that fossil fuels are finite, whats your plan in 20 years time? Are you sitting on some oil or gas reserves that you havent told anyone about?



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    But they will accept nuclear plants and waste storage facilities? Seriously?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    One nuclear plant v multiple industrial wind & solar farms and whatever else? Yes, things have moved on from Carnsore - that was a looong time ago. Were you around for it??



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,126 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    You are a fan of this ESB offshore plan, where in that do you see this excess for export ?

    It`s a plan that would cost anywhere between €150 - €200 Billion to cater for our own needs providing 6.3 GW for domestic supply. Our peak demand here has been 6.9 GW and that is before these 1 million E.V.s and 400,000 of the greens are added to demand. Last year alone electricity demand grew by 4% while wind energy dropped by 17%.

    On the import side, where would we have imported wind energy from for the last 10 days anyway, or indeed during any of the recent periods when wind here dropped to virtually nothing ?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭KildareP


    The UK, Netherlands, Dernmark, along with the north of France, Germany (including their most densely populated capitals), are all sub-zero currently and under the same little wind high pressure system as us.

    All countries who we would ultimately rely on for backup power via the existing or planned inter-connectors to supply us with this week's wind shortfall.

    Power they, in all likelihood, aren't going to have excess to give if they're going to provide localised backup for the lack of wind coming from us?


    Summer is exactly the same, a European high pressure system causes the extreme heat events that we saw over the last few years. High pressure which again leads to little or no wind, relatively speaking. Again, where will the excess come from these countries if they have to provide localised backup for a lack of renewable electricity coming from ourselves?



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