Teachers leaving Dublin schools due to accommodation costs

I suppose I can only speak for myself but I think it'd be money well spent to ensure that we can retain public servants in the areas where we're currently struggling to retain them... And, tbh, you'll rarely find me in opposition to any public investment in education. It's not a silver bullet but it's the closest thing we'll ever get to one in Ireland.

That said. Were a government to unilaterally introduce a "Rent Pressure Zone Tax Credit" for public sector workers living in those areas as part of Budget 2024 (or even in advance of it), it'd put them in a far stronger position for the next round of salary negotiations. Equal pay for equal work is a nice theory but it falls apart in the real world when the cost of living is different in different regions.

Teachers (and other public servants) aren't struggling to house themselves in rural Mayo (as can be easily seen by the amount of McMansions in that part of the world) but they certainly are in South (and greater) Dublin and other high rent areas e.g. Galway City. It makes far more sense to target whatever financial resources our state has available to ensuring the adequate provision of public services in areas where we're struggling to do that than to give blanket wage increases that effectively result in some public servants being over-paid whilst others are struggling to make ends meet.

I don't think we fundamentally disagree HerrKuhn.

I do think it's unlikely you'll ever see the unions push for Dublin (or RPZ) allowances when such a move would cause division in their ranks when you'd have many from outside those areas who would see it as sacrificing what they'd see to be their own well-deserved pay increase for their faceless colleagues in different geographic areas.

While I agree we also need a major investment in social housing provision, the private sector already has premiums in place for high-rent areas as they're operating in a market system: they already know they need to (and do) pay more for staff in high cost of living areas or with niche skillsets.

Unions are never going to agree to individuals negotiating their own salaries, it's pretty much the opposite of what they're designed for (i.e. collective bargaining), so while I don't fundamentally disagree with your point of view, I don't think it's remotely realistic to expect such a change to happen. I'm a firm believer in not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good and imo, some form of premium - whether implemented as an additional payment incentive or a tax credit - is necessary to ensure public services in Dublin (and other high cost of living areas) don't end up falling far behind those provided in other regions.

BTW: there are already different grades for IT staff in many PS organisations but I'd agree the salary levels are very unattractive for them - recently looked at one myself until I realised that despite being a Director of IT role, the salary scale started around 63k!)

It is often claimed that it is very difficult to find a permanent position as a teacher. So, I am not sure how realistic it is that someone finds a position for the 2 years continuous. The number of teachers a school has (and are paid for by the state) is related to the number of pupils is it not? So they will need to take this into account when making a teacher permanent if they are expecting someone to come back, possibly years later.

If a teacher is already on a multi year break, we have already "lost" them I am afraid. The vast majority of people who go to the ME will live there only temporarily, for very obvious reasons. Any deposit that they have at the end of it will be well earned.

Well, I don't agree with that. Up to them if they want to trade the downsides for the benefits. I just don't think they should have the possibility to keep their position open for years while they work abroad. I get the benefit to the teacher, I just think it is a disadvantage to everyone else.

Immoral?...bit of a stretch?

It might be the only way they have to ultimately get themselves a house in this country on any sort of reasonable timescale etc

I certainly never viewed anyone that went off to ME as immoral anyway.

Sorry for the tangent. I just find it morally indefensible to profit off the misery of others just so to avoid paying income tax. For all that I believe the Catholic Church has no place having any involvement in our education system, at least their crimes against humanity seem to be (hopefully) a thing of the past.

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The Allowance for teachers on islands never really caused division within unions.

But really though how much more would it take to keep a teacher in Dublin. If you're talking about paying rent and saving for a deposit then I'd say that's at least an extra 10k. Which of course is not 10k disposable income after taxes are taken into account.

I don't think anything will be done. New minister soon so they'll stay talking about school places and new classes for kids with additional needs. Speaking about Dublin won't really get them anywhere, so they'll probably just tell us they are going to 'form a committee to examine the issue'.

It's very easy to find a permanent job in the right subjects in Dublin. Very, very easy. I could walk out of my job now and into another with little or no bother. This is only getting worse, that why we are discussing this.

Stafd can be redeployed if the school is over quota. The school doesn't care about that long term, they just want to cover the timetable that year and are always happy to get a good teacher. You don't really seem to know how schools run, either at local or department level.

We are currently waiting for a few staff to return, really good staff, no issue keeping a job open for someone who might do it for the next couple of decades if they want to head off for 2 years. The staff who have covered for them will also be kept, again good teachers in a hiring crisis so no problem . In the long term that makes strategic sense. These are the calculations management in schools make. Plenty of people on here in management in schools or who've sat or boards or acting as stewards who can give more insight too from experience and knowledge. And plenty were here a decade ago pointing out that the 2 year dip was a massive issue, not least because young staff now owe more so going abroad to pay it back is also more attractive.

A masterstroke....you should be in charge of these things!

I look forward to your next pronouncement.

Yes, several of the older teacher in my school own houses in now very affluent areas of the city. Nice three/four beds. None of the staff under 40 do unless they have a partner with a high paid job.

It also means long commutes, young staff, no continuity in the next couple of decades and fewer extra curriculars for kids in the city. The roving gangs in the city at the moment didn't come from nowhere, they come out of deprivation and a lack of services though covid, wait until the full effect of a revolving door of teachers comes to fruition, we are already seeing kids into secondary essentially illiterate, not something we saw a decade ago. Students in deprived areas of the city are not getting any AEN services in the majority of schools I know. But giving out about teachers sure will solve this!

I think you are missing the point. The teachers ARE working. They are just choosing to work in areas they can afford to live. Are you suggesting forcing people to work in the cities? Who should take that hit?

In the past, yes, you'd have had plenty of single income households living on a teachers salary buying in solid middle class South Dublin areas like Ranelagh, Rathfarnham etc.

In today's market, a single teacher or a family relying on a single income wouldn't have a hope of buying anywhere in Dublin. Even in their 10th year on the current scale, that single income couldn't afford anything in the greater Dublin area.

Since modern day Dublin pretty much requires a dual income household in order to be able to buy anything let's examine the scenario of a couple where both are secondary teachers in their 5th year on the scale since most couples tend to form between individuals of relatively similar education and income levels and that's around the point most are beginning to look to buy. It could just as easily be a teacher and a nurse/garda/fund accountant etc. though the last example are likely to have a higher income in their 5th year of work post graduation since the private already pays a premium for Dublin workers.

If we take the basic pay scales posted by TUI, that imaginary couple of two teachers would have a household income of €92,176. Using the current 3.5 multiplier (yes, that increases to 4 in the new year but lets assume they're prudent) that'd give them a maximum mortgage of €322,616 so a max house price just north of 358k (i.e. a 90% mortgage).

As of today's listings on Daft, filtering for 3 bed properties for sale there are 208 listings in South County Dublin under 350k and a further 169 in South Dublin City. None of them are in Foxrock / Sandycove / Rathfarnham or the like but it is, just about, possible for that imaginary couple to buy a 3 bed in Tallaght/Clondalkin/Lucan etc. (or indeed in my own neck of the woods in North County Dublin).

The big issue at is that this same imaginary couple would have the exact same purchasing power if their teaching jobs were in Roscommon, New Ross, Sligo, Cork etc. In these areas they could relatively easily afford a large, walk in condition 4 or 5 bed detached home on half an acre (or more).

For the teacher (and many other public servants on country-wide pay scales) it's a no-brainer: Dublin just doesn't offer anything close to the same lifestyle on their salary level. And unless we move to remote learning, we're still going to need teachers in Dublin, so it seems to stand to reason that we need to pay them a premium to work there. It's never going to be possible to pay enough of a Dublin premium to afford a large 4 bed detached property in Forxrock but there's no reason they shouldn't be able to afford to buy a decent 3 bed in a reasonable area.

I suppose, to your last point, will an NQT hang around for 9 years to accumulate enough to live in Dublin the same way you did in 2012…? I don't think rents are on a par .

Keep in mind in 2012 you could go for maybe a 20-25 year mortgage. Whereas now I suspect you'll be paying a mortgage for up to 30 years. There used to be a bit of a buffer before whereby the mortgage was paid off in your 50s and you could help your own kids out with college or a house deposit. Not sure if that's possible to plan for with today's Dublin NQTs.