World Cup 2022 - discussion of the host country and related issues

You can’t pick and chose and suddenly arbitrarily decide bloggers are making it all up if it doesn’t suit the narrative that you want. I have posted a number of different blogs/vlogs from Mexican, American and English fans.

To imply that they are all part of some conspiracy- is conspiracy theory thread stuff.

Simply Just because do not fit the black and white narrative Qatar = Evil and West = good - narrative. I believe the story is much more complex one based on a myriad of issues.

I posted three Americans Mexicans and English. The American one was early on they also support Mexico. Another posted pointed out that the latter looked no craic.

I think it is a big stretch to say the whole thing is rigged as a PR trick. It sounds as ridiculous, as it is convenient.

As for the Iranian women. If the Qatari’s banned Iranian women from supporting their team. Entering stadiums and so on.

Then it might have some substance. But there has been pictures of a lot of Iranian women at matches. Emotional at the non-singing of the Iranian anthem etc.

I think it comes down to many are disappointed the arse did not fall out of the Qatar WC.

The truth is has been one of the more memorable world cups in my lifetime. We have not even finished the group stages.

And seems well run. In fact it is the first time I can remember no English hooliganism at the host nation for example.

But this is the same Danish journalist isn’t it? To me it sounds like he is trying to ‘make a name’ for himself. That is the impression I get anyway.

I saw an article from the Journal.ie. Which implied that Tony O’Donoghue had the same issues as the Danish journalist. But it turned out it was only implied it was similar.

T’O’D himself said it was merely a communication mix up. Nothing more.

That is the type of codding going on media ‘making’ a story where there is none.

I think the Danish fella is deliberately ‘pushing it’ hoping for a reaction. And he has got one.

Tony O’Donoghue got a bit of hassle but it was only a communication mix up as he said himself. And didn’t seem to have any issue at all and it was sorted out.

Yet if you Google his name hassle and Qatar. The impression the headlines give was it was extreme ‘heavy handed’ stuff, with all its implied implications.

I am just wondering as well what you thought of the BBC censorship of the opening ceremony? Was that freedom of expression?

I found the article I was on about it was dublin live not the Journal

Headline -

‘RTE's Tony O'Donoghue 'interrupted by police' while filming in Qatar ahead of World Cup’

I read the story was mostly repeating the Danish reporters story when he was ‘interrupted’. And trying to frame the two and conflate them side by side etc.

Then finally after getting through all of that you get TO’D’s opinion on his own incident.

’But the broadcaster put the incident down to bad communication between organisers and local security instead of evidence of an “oppressive regime”’

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Explain that to me lads and the overly dramatic framing of the article etc Which was basically clickbait, when you read Tony's full story.

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The Sun same story Headline

Tony O’Donoghue reveals RTE’s filming for World Cup was interrupted by Qatari police

"We have the accreditation from FIFA and then we have the local host organising accreditation.

"We were just outside the stadium and the police came along and asked us to stop.

"It wasn't as dramatic perhaps as the situation with the Danish camera crew, but I don't think there's anything especially unusual there.

"There's been other situations in other parts of the world where I've been asked to show permits for filming.

"I think it's just down to bad communication from the organisers down to the security forces on the ground rather than the example of an oppressive regime.'

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Is the Corkman in the Qatari's back pocket?

Come on the BBC did censor it. Censoring is a 'suppression of public communication or publication'. By it's very nature less people would have seen the opening ceremony in the UK as result when moved to the 'red button'. Also I would argue it was symbolic demotion, as well as censorship. Plus it was one of the most interesting WC opening ceremonies I have ever seen. It was much better than Diana Ross missing an opening goal in USA 94, when she hooked it wide.

The Danish guy is the same fella who was in the interrupted drama and the Iranian fracas incident. The SAME GUY. He is clearly stirring the pot looking for a reaction and pushing it.

His name is Rasmus Tantholdt - his speciality of journalism is 'extreme conflict areas'. He is a sh!t stirrer basically, and does so for the drama and journalistic kudos.

I'm really unsure what the youtube videos of people at the tournament are supposed to be showing us exactly... that it's not a torture chamber for tourists? I mean, of course it's not... the facilities are decent (if grossly insufficient for the numbers an international tournament would be expected to provide, meaning most people who'd like to go simply can't, and those who went have to pay through the nose for it). But the tourist facilities looking fine is pretty much to be expected, given the money the country threw at it.

The shiny veneer has never really been in question, but rather everything under the surface. Have to say watching them, having been to international tournaments, it doesn't look much craic. All looks very clean and controlled, designated levels of fun happening in designated places. Which is grand, but it's not really the raucous groundswell of emotion an international tournament is supposed to feel like... I'm sure those at it will have a thoroughly alright time.

Oh and German fans/team got the mick taken out of them big style. Hands on mouth waving goodbye Qatar TV. There were Qatari fans holding up images of Ozil (remember that story - when I win I am German - when I lose I am an immigrant). A German fan shouted F you Tailban! And tried to take the image.

Just listen to your language ‘careful curation’ ‘educated guess’. It all seems like mental gymnastics to me. Censorship is censorship.

By the BBC not showing the opening ceremony on their main channel. It is a form of censorship, and media controlled manipulation. No matter how you couch it.

I think what the BBC did will in time be viewed as just another misstep from that media organisation. There is a list of previous ones here.

The manipulative of miners strike coverage in the 80’s and the Savile cover up more recently are particular standouts IMO.

Germany have just signed a deal with Qatar for 15year LNG

Christ this is a grim enough take...

By simply handwaving away all symbolic protest, you do definitely cut out the small percentage of people who just want to be seen to care, but you also remove everyone else as well for whom whatever simple symbol might actually mean something - might be something big, or something really small, but something genuinely sincere nonetheless. It's worth remembering that the volume of awareness brought out through these little gestures is directly related to the volume of donations that end up coming in, so in their way they do have a tangible positive impact. They create momentum and visibility which ultimately are the most important thing's in causing any change or meaningful aid at scale. You mentioned change in the middle east coming from people's voices rising up - well, this is part of that too. All the different versions of this, whether its a social media post, or people wearing a Women Life Freedom t-shirt in Iran, it's all part of strengthening the message. As has been the case for literally all of time, a good branding/media campaign is the bedrock of every successful movement.

So don't get so hung up on feeling so angry about what you think of as people showboating, and simply think of them as what they are for the most part, just simple little passive positive messages of support. Let's be real, no one who pops up one of those things is actually expecting some round of applause or something, they're just adding to the sea of momentum behind something they agree with. Most people have partners, kids, jobs, parents to look after, and there's not often the freedom to go off crusading for all the issues that give them some stab of frustration/sadness/anger/grief, so these yokes and maybe a donation are a little way of venting that emotion. There's different ways of doing things, just cause you have yours doesn't mean everyone not doing the same is wrong or a poser or something. Why waste your energy being so judgmental of perceived intentions and motivations that are likely wrong anyway. There's always going to be some annoying tossers that get on your nerves with actions of all kinds, but they're also always going to be the minority. And tbh in reality I think it's a very very small minority too. Most people are grand.

Elsewhere, on your first point - communication and the internet. That's it really. Proper all inclusive networked communication has let people see other people like them, let them know they're not alone, let like minded people come together, and been instrumental in organising events, gatherings, protests etc.

(Also, like, maybe you should tell people about the charities you believe in, cause then maybe they'd get more donations...)

Meanwhile in the real world we have Al-Ueid Airbase in Doha (set up since 2003) specifically for the American military at the cost of billions. For the Qatari’s superpower ally.

From which America can ‘monitor’ the Middle East.

A large proportion of Moroccans would consider themselves Arab, they are a member of the Arab League, their language is Arabic.

The chief executive of the Qatar World Cup was asked about a migrant worker's death at the tournament. (During the tournament, actually)

Nasser Al Khater said  "This is something you want to talk about right now? I mean, death is a natural part of life, whether it's at work, whether it's in your sleep.”  

He added: "Look, workers' deaths has been a big subject during the World Cup. Everything that has been said and everything that has been reflected about workers' deaths has been absolutely false. This theme, this negativity around the World Cup has been something that we've been faced with. We're a bit disappointed that the journalists have been exacerbating this false narrative. And honestly, I think a lot of the journalists have to ask themselves and reflect on why they've been trying to bang on about the subject for so long."

 An Amnesty spokesperson said: "Unfortunately, Mr Al Khater is mistaken when he says that every fatality is investigated. This is simply not true. We and others have been calling on the Qatari authorities to conduct such investigations on workers' deaths for years to no avail. Instead, they continue to simply write off vast numbers of deaths as being due to 'natural causes' despite the clear health risks associated with working in extreme temperatures. It goes without saying that the Government should be investigating this most recent tragic case, as well as the deaths of all others. Every single family who has lost a loved one as a result of their working conditions in Qatar deserves answers and remedy for their loss."

Classy and caring right to the way through.

Apparently posters are not permitted to post about the atmosphere at games on the match discussion thread

.England v France build up on RTE -

Ronnie Whelan said the atmosphere in this WC has been great place to bring kids to. Hamilton concurred pointing at the crowds in the stadium. Very safe fans mixing etc.

Ronnie said he has enjoyed the excitement of the games but questioned some of the standard at matches.

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England v France build up ITV

Mark Pougatch commented that the atmosphere was ‘flat’ and there was no point in pretending otherwise!

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I was wondering is the implication from ITV that the fans were no craic because they were not boozed up?

Seems odd that two separate media organisations have such a divergence of opinions. So what is going on? One of them must have an agenda? There cannot be such a difference of opinion on such a basic thing as atmosphere! At the same match!

England v France at 70 plus minutes 1-1 atmosphere seems great to me. Full capacity Crowd well engaged. So what is going on?

Why were ITV trying to ‘frame’ it as ‘flat’ in the build up. And Ronnie the opposite on RTE with Hamilton!!

It still does not explain the divergence of opinion on the atmosphere between the British and Irish media. It seems polar opposites from what I have heard and viewed.

He does his best to create one for us watching on TV anyway!

I'm not sure they do actually point towards polar opposites tbh... your own line about the Irish lads experience was; "Ronnie Whelan said the atmosphere in this WC has been a great place to bring kids to. Hamilton concurred pointing at the crowds in the stadium. Very safe fans mixing etc."

That doesn't sound like a great football atmosphere to me to be honest... that sounds like a nice pleasant park experience, a fun for all ages, nice day out sort of thing. Whereas I'd assume what the English lads were talking about is the lack of what we'd expect from a great football atmosphere. Noise, passion, intensity, emotion, drama, excitement - intimidation even. Probably not actually what you would call a great place to bring the fam.

So they could well be describing the same experience in different terms. I've been to a rake of LA Galaxy matches - the atmosphere is usually quite friendly, and nice, and chill in a way - but it's a terrible football atmosphere cause it just feels like a bunch of people there for a nice trip out of the house instead of really fervently desperately caring about what's happening on the pitch. (by contrast, LAFC has a much better atmosphere).

This WC has been fairly undeniably flat, not least because of all the empty seats game after game (there was loads of them in that upper tier again today - in a world cup semi final! that's insane). The Argie games have been the best of them, but most games have had quite underwhelming atmospheres. Ken Early was talking about the same too, just how quiet it can be... he said about a quarter of the seats in the last Brazil match were empty. The football itself has been decent enough, but just about everything beyond those white lines has seemed thoroughly neutered.

Wonder why flights were cancelled that were going to ship in Moroccan fans?

Since when do you need tickets to a game to fly into a country? There's always been hundreds of thousands of fans in WC countries without tickets.