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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Tie farm subsidies to it and they'll get onboard PDQ



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Or the 121 billion decommissioning costs for Sellafield that won't even deal with the waste long term

    I'd love to see some figures on the CBA for that location from date of inception to final decommissioning

    With a cost like that its no wonder investors are baulking at the prospect of investing in nuclear



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    I thought the plan is to use the waste in the future.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Then it's destined to fail. Allow it to be traded like a typical farm commodity on an open free market platform where its true value is realised that is the only option.

    You seem to forget that the people that are on this marginal bogland are the worst off farmers that have extremely low farm subsidies payments in the first place, so threatening them with that won't work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    You have no problem stating that there should be more park and rides, bus lanes and public transport routes that would make things easier and more economical for the people in the large urban centers. You mentioned by creating a public transport system that made things more sustainable, economical and convenient for a person to take public transport instead of driving then it would work in taking more cars off the road, and be the correct approach - I agree and well said.

    On the other hand you state that the farm subsidy payment should be linked to rewetting marginal poor quality bogland. The new carbon farming proposal from the EU would leave a farmer financially worse off if it is in acted in its current state. So I find it interesting that you can just hypocritically say that in order to incentivise public transport, people would have to see both the convenience and economical upside, but for someone on marginal peatland you don't seem to care if they don't get or see the financial incentive to rewet, we just try force them.

    Ask any multinational company to drastically change their business model that would result in their net asset value (value of land in this case) being effectively worthless (as the value of carbon will not be attached to it), and their operating revenue being reduced by on average 30% - wonder what their answer would be.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    France:

    The size is related to the impact of nuclear power stations which you need to relocate every 20 or so years since they appears to take 10 years to build and require levels of redundancy as they frequently require maintenance that takes the entire thing offline.

    The density of your plants is going to be the problem.


    Savannah River:

    Your summary seems a little...light on facts shall we say?

    I've highlighted some of the important numbers...

    In 1992, the cooling tower was connected to the K Reactor, and the reactor operated briefly for the last time. The Secretary of Energy announced the phase-out of all uranium processing. Non-radioactive operations began at the Replacement Tritium Facility and the Defense Waste Processing Facility (DWPF). K Reactor was placed in cold standby condition in 1993. Non-radioactive test runs of the Defense Waste Processing Facility began. Construction began on the Consolidated Incineration Facility. Tritium introduced into the Replacement Tritium Facility and radioactive operations began. The Workforce Transition and Community Assistance was started.

    In 1994, the Savannah River Site Citizens Advisory Board was established. The Replacement Tritium Facility saw its startup. In 1996, DWPF introduced radioactive material into the vitrification process. K Reactor was shut down. F Canyon was restarted and began stabilizing nuclear materials. In 1997, the first high-level radioactive waste tanks were closed, numbers 17 and 20. The Cold War Historic Preservation Program was begun.

    In 2000, the K-Reactor building was converted to the K Area Materials Storage Facility. The Savannah River Site was selected as the location of three new plutonium facilities for: a MOX fuel fabrication; pit disassembly and conversion; and plutonium immobilization. WSRC earned the DOE's top safety performance honor of Star Status.

    Thousands of shipments of transuranic waste were contained and sent by truck and by rail to the DOE's Waste Isolation Pilot Plant (WIPP) Project in New Mexico, with the first shipments beginning in 2001. DWPF completed production of four million pounds of environmentally acceptable classified waste.

    In 2002, the F Canyon and FB Line facilities completed their last production run. The Savannah River Technology Center participated in a study of using a nuclear power reactor to produce hydrogen from water. Scientists reported finding a new species of radiation-resistant extremophiles inside one of the tanks. It was named Kineococcus radiotolerans.[8][9]

    In January 2003, Westinghouse Savannah River Co. completed transferring the last of F Canyon's radioactive material to H Tank Farm. DWPF began radioactive operations with its second melter, installed during a shutdown. The last depleted uranium metal was shipped from M Area for disposition at Envirocare of Utah. The last unit of spent nuclear fuel from RBOF was shipped across the site to L Reactor in preparation for RBOF's deactivation. Salt Waste Processing Facility (SWPF) construction began.

    In 2004, the site shipped its 10,000th drum of transuranic waste to the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant (WIPP), a DOE facility in New Mexico, 12 years ahead of schedule. In a visit, Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham designated the Savannah River National Laboratory (SRNL), one of 12 DOE national laboratories. Two prototype bomb disposal robots developed by SRNL were deployed for military use in Iraq.

    2005 saw the Tritium Extraction Facility (TEF) completed for the purpose of extracting tritium from materials irradiated in the Tennessee Valley Authority's commercial nuclear reactors. Savannah River Site's first shipment of neptunium oxide arrived at the Argonne West Laboratory in Idaho. This was the last of the USA's neptunium inventory, and the last of the materials to be stabilized to satisfy commitments for stabilizing nuclear materials. F Canyon was the first major nuclear facility at the site to be suspended and deactivated. Low-enriched uranium (LEU) from the site was used by a Tennessee Valley Authority nuclear power reactor to generate electricity. The tritium facilities modernization and consolidation project completed start-up and replaced the gas purification and processing that took place in 232-H. WSRC began multi-stage layoffs of permanent employees.

    In 2006, design work took place for the Salt Waste Processing Facility (SWPF), a facility designed to process radioactive liquid waste stored in underground storage tanks at the site. The SWPF project work is performed by a group anchored by Parsons Corp. Work continued on design of the MOX fuel fabrication facility by a company now known as Shaw AREVA MOX Services. The SRNL was designated as the Department of Energy Office of Environmental Management's "Corporate Laboratory." Aiken County's new Center for Hydrogen Research opened its doors. F-Area deactivation work was completed as was T-Area closure.

    In 2007, the Tritium Extraction Facility (TEF) opened. On 1 August, construction officially began on the $4.86 billion MOX facility.[10] Following startup testing, the facility expects a disposition rate of up to 3.5 tons of plutonium oxide each year.[11][12]

    In 2008, Savannah River Nuclear Solutions, LLC (SRNS) was awarded the contract for Maintenance and Operation of SRS. SRNS is a partnership between Fluor Corporation, Newport News Nuclear, Inc. (a subsidiary of Huntington Ingalls Industries) and Honeywell International.[2] Savannah River Remediation (SRR) was awarded the contract for the Liquid Waste Operations of SRS. Historical markers were placed in P and R Areas commemorating the role both reactors played towards winning the Cold War. Construction on the Waste Solidification Building (WSB) began.

    In 2009, SRS began The American Reinvestment and Recovery Act (ARRA) project representing a $1.6 billion investment in SRS. This project, expected to run through fiscal year 2011, will result in the accelerated cleanup of nuclear waste at SRS and a significant reduction in the site footprint. In 2009 alone, more than 1,500 new workers were hired and over 800 jobs retained, due to ARRA funding. SRS construction employees reached 23 million hours (11 consecutive years) without a lost time injury case.

    M Area closure was completed in 2010, with the P and R Areas following in 2011.[6]



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,993 ✭✭✭spaceHopper



    All that amounts to bullying people out of their cars. From a man that doesn't drive. Eventually you have to stand up to a bully. Come election time that means getting rid of him. If he were to get his way it will result in more congestion and more fumes. Any that do use public transport now won't be happy either. The service can't cope with it's existing users how will it cope with more. His approach is all wrong. He could make it unnecessary to make as many trips in the car by allowing people to chose alternatives by making public transport better. He could make renting cars easier... Personally I'd never be without a car.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    I personally love doing the weekly shop and getting on a packed bus with nowhere to put said shopping. Probably be told to use a cargo bike.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,120 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    The Important figure that you like all greens refuse to provide is the cost of this ESB plan you favour.

    So rather than, like another poster here, you running around the world looking for the most expensive example on nuclear you can find, why not just provide the cost of this plan that will have to be repeated twice within the lifetime of a nuclear plant and subtract the cost of, (shall we say four 1.1GW reactor for a cost of $5.2Bn each based on the Poland recent price which wasn`t even the cheapest), and tell us how much the difference is that could be used for clean-up.

    Until you can do that then your argument is pointless.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,120 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Their is no stick left when it comes to people saving their own turf, so the carrot would need to be large to incentivise anyone from doing so, not just farmers. Large numbers of a generation that gave up saving their own turf did so on the promise of cheap alternatives and there were many of them back on the bogs this year.

    With the money they will save on energy bills, on the theory of "fool me once more full me...." more fool anyone that believes that attempting to fool them twice will work.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭kabakuyu




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    You can let the cargo bike fill with rainwater an then take a soak when you get home.,save the auld water, another great idea from the greenies.

    https://www.independent.ie/news/environment/hopes-cargo-bikes-can-replace-more-family-cars-as-bike-to-work-limit-increased-to-3000-42085265.html



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Thats pretty much the opposite of what I meant. By tying it to subsidies it will be more attractive and get a greater uptake

    Leaving it to farmers to do it off their own bat, with no incentive, will see f-all doing anything. Why should they if there's no benefit for them

    My point was to make it a good financial decision to encourage uptake



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    "When you've had privilege for so long, equality seems like persecution"

    Like I said, its about shifting the needle on what is considered the most convenient option

    Simply put, capacity has been reached and exceeded for cars in our cities. Smarter policies can lead to a reduction in car traffic while at the same time increasing capacity of the road network

    Take a look at the Dublin City Canal Cordon Report. Its eye opening for a lot of people and it is exactly the kind of evidence that is driving (excuse the pun) change



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,993 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    I used to work in Dun Laoghaire but lived in town. I got the 46A at Leason Street. It was great in the summer but come September, it was full in mornings of UCD students so I couldn't get to work. I bought a car. That was in the 90s

    Then in the 2000's I lived in Ballinteer, any time I went to get the bus into town in evening it never showed up. I was better off walking to the Luas.

    Moved to the dart line, had kids. The lift at the local dart station is always out of order, I've only seen it working once in about 30 times. So any patent with a buggy or older person or wheelchair uses can't use the dart.

    I can get the bus to work, that journey works very well but getting home, I get on at the edge of the edge for the city and by the time it gets to me it's full.

    So my experience of public transport in Dublin is, the luas is good, the green line is safe, the green line probably needs security. The dart is good but the stations on terrible. The darts need security and stations need upkeep and security. For example I wouldn't use a park and ride at the edge of the city with my kids for I didn't feel safe.

    The bus service isn't fit for purpose, security and quality of service simply isn't there.

    Now if you want to achieve something on public transport,

    Make all traffic flow. Imporeve security. Have load balancing so there are more busses into the city in the morning and more out in the evening on key routes. Make it a service people would want to use not one you have to force them to use.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Make it a service people would want to use not one you have to force them to use.

    Thats literally what I have been saying

    FYI, here's the canal cordon report I was referring to.

    https://councilmeetings.dublincity.ie/documents/s28136/Canal%20Cordon%20Report%202019.pdf



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,993 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    Well I picked that up wrong you keep mentioning carrot and stick. Eamon Ryan comes across as somebody who will bully people over the his green ways weather they like it or not. That's causing huge resistance to green ideas.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭ginger22




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Why is the EU carbon farming proposal so dismal then. If they made it financially viable and treated carbon like a comodity then I believe alot of farmers would change as it would be greatly beneficial, and the asset value of their land would not be rendered worthless as it would be linked to the carbon price.

    But the EU proposal is such that it isn't a viable option in the slightest. You can see why farmers are angry over this and therefore why would they change.

    The EU and alot of the greenbrigade are all sound bites and absolutely no desire to face the facts that big buisness in the EU accounts for most of the emissions but they get a free ride because they produce most of the GDP. So let's put the the spotlight on the everyday citizens and oppress them for their shameful wicked ways.

    Big buissness in the EU get to take part in the offsetting European Emmisions Trading scheme, where the biggest populaters can use credits or certificate of emmisions reductions (CERs) from other sectors like agriculture and forestry to offset against their total emit. They get to write the rule book to suit themselves yet the normal citizen is the one that is always get the blame.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Just to clarify, the carrot and stick comes into it in terms of making the more sustainable modes the better choice. I'm not saying take away choice, just saying make the sustainable options more appealing than the private car. Should someone wish to remain driving they can do so, but (and this is where the carrot/stick comes in) other options should be quicker, cheaper, more reliable in terms of journey times, have better access to the city center etc. while the car option should cost more, be slower, have less access etc. Basically the least efficient, least sustainable mode should be the worst choice.

    As an example, when I used to drive to Dublin for anything, once it opened, I always parked at the Red Cow P&R and got the Luas in. I never drove in the city once that became an option as it was the best option for me from that point of my journey.

    Now when I go to Dublin, I'll get the train or bus up, and typically use the bike share to get around the city center.

    I could still drive into Dublin city center if I wanted, but its a really crap option for me personally



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'd have zero problem with doing something like that if the agri sector decided to chip in at a proper level and set an emissions reduction target of 50% or greater. As it stands, they are one of the worst emitters but getting off lightly at 25% and bitching about it at that and still wanting EU handouts while slapping away any notion of EU targets

    Cake and eating it comes to mind



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl




  • Registered Users Posts: 15,120 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    How do you expect any farmer to take Ryan rambling, or anyone that supports that rambling on emissions seriously ?

    He, along with such supporters, are either living in their heads in their own little biosphere or attempting to convince farmers they are living in a make believe biosphere where they should cut their own throats to satisfy an ideology that when it comes to farming is being pushed by people who are beyond clueless.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Well I would argue that the agriculture sector cannot set a target like 50% if the financial incentive like what I described is not in place in order to allow for the change in farming practice.

    Also on the EU handouts and the 'cake and eat it', allowing carbon to be traded like a commodity on a open free market means there is no requirement for an EU handout (for the carbon farmer), unless the EU decides that they want to continue with their model of a cheap food policy, as then the bigger industrial intensive farmers may have to offset their emissions by purchasing them on the open market from low intensive carbon farmers.

    On a side note, this just shows the EU bullshit green agenda soundbite hypocrisy - My farm at the minute is completely carbon neutral, in fact I have excess CO2 sequestered and stored that I can do nothing with. If I set my farm up as a company I could sell my produce and legally state that I am carbon neutral much like for instance Google. As it stands now, a farmer, cannot do any of that, the new LULUCF regulation passed by the EU in fact gives permission for the member state in this case Ireland the ability sell any excess credits from the LULUCF sector to another member state or else sell them direct to the biggest emitting companies in the EU on the EU ETS. Granted Irelands LULUCF sector at the minute is classed as an emitter of CO2, based on a vague 'one size fits all Calculation', not by measurement.

    In my case as I am a net sequester, effectively Ireland as a state could sell my sequestered carbon to an Amazon data center site registered on the ETS. Baring in mind they (the state) have absolutely no right or have no ownership of the carbon of any land - how do I know this, I have a written parliamentary question from Charlie McConalogue stating it.

    So overall, as you can see there is a lot more at play here than meets the eye.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If I follow your logic then farmers would also have to apply and pay for credits to be allowed to emit GHG's then also like they have started doing in New Zealand. It would follow the "polluter pays" principle but adding in your element, would make it "polluter pays, sequester earns"

    Honestly, I'd have no problem with that



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Once carbon on all Irish land is accurately measured not calculated and farmers can use their sequestered co2 through grassland, hedges, forestry and cropland then I think that should apply. Then it's up to the EU whether or not they want to subsidise it for the farm producers inorder to keep with their cheap food policy, otherwise the consumer will pay for the carbon price as it will get passed on.

    What's your thoughts on farmers CO2 been effectively stolen and sold to big emitting companies or member states.

    Grotesque if you ask me



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Once carbon on all Irish land is accurately measured not calculated and farmers can use their sequestered co2 through grassland, hedges, forestry and cropland then I think that should apply. Then it's up to the EU whether or not they want to subsidise it for the farm producers inorder to keep with their cheap food policy, otherwise the consumer will pay for the carbon price as it will get passed on.

    If agri emissions (not just carbon) are being paid for and sequestration earned, then I don't see why the EU would need to subsidise anything.

    It would be in every farmers interest to reduce emissions as much as possible to stay competitive in the exact same way no farmer likes to see wasted fuel, seed, fertiliser etc. This would be no different.

    None of this will happen though as the emitting farmers won't want to pay which means the ones sequestering, such as yourself, won't see any gains which is a pity. Its a good idea and would lead to genuine competition and innovation in emissions reductions from agri but I can't see it ever happening because of vested interests, but I'd love to be wrong.

    What's your thoughts on farmers CO2 been effectively stolen and sold to big emitting companies or member states.

    I don't agree with your phrasing, but to answer your overall question, I'll answer with a question. What's the alternative? Like an honest, genuine, viable, alternative that works for the whole agri sector as I laid it out (polluter pays/sequester earns) because, as I said, I can't see the polluting farmers wanting to stump up for emissions credits.

    There is no viable system that can be implemented that only rewards the sequester and does not penalise the emitter but maybe there is and I'm not seeing it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭ginger22


    Ha found out. You said you got rid of the car. Now you say you could drive into Dublin.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    You still never answered the second question instead you deflected, as it stands farmers cannot sell, offset sequestered or stored carbon, nor does the new EU carbon farming proposal allow for it. Yet a huge emitting company can use CO2 sequestered off my land for example and offset it against their company and they look great and are classed as carbon neutral, green and a great ESG score, Google and Microsoft comes mind.

    How is this in anyway fair, please provide your thoughts.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    GoCar

    Its a great service, you should try it, I use it a few times a year for the very rare occasions I've actually needed a car and have posted about it several times.



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