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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The National Transport Authority has published the Waterford Metropolitan Area Transport Strategy (WMATS). It follows on in the same form as the recent Limerick & Cork ones where it moves further away from provisioning for the private car towards sustainable modes instead (walking, cycling, bus, rail etc).

    The press release which includes many other supporting documents


    The report itself




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I did answer

    There is no fair system that can be created that will allow only the sequesters to gain without the emitters being penalised if you are talking about emission credits that can be traded.

    You want payment for sequestering, cool, zero problem with that, but then the emitters have to pay up for credits too.

    If you want fair then you have to be fair. I have no problem, zero, zip, zilch with you making money off trading emission credits for your sequestered emissions. Absolutely no issues at all with it. BUT, then the farmers that are emitters need to buy emission credits. Only in such a system is it fair.

    If there is such a proposal to implement such a fair system that you are aware of let me know, I'd fully, 100% support it

    However, it sounds like you want a system where you get paid for sequestering through trading emission credits, but want polluters to not be required credits for their emissions.

    Sorry, there is nothing fair about that proposal.

    As I said, a fair system would work both ways. It seems like you only want it to operate one way. By all means correct me if I'm wrong, but that is the impression I'm getting.

    To answer your point, outside of such a fair system being in operation, the only viable alternative is the current system. For that to be changed to a fairer system both sides (emitters & sequesters) in the agri sector would have to agree to fully partake in the ETS. Once you get that agreement, you get whatever benefit there is from sequestering in relation to the ETS.

    Absent that agreement, you have the current system. Which I've no doubt the major agri emitters is very fair as it doesn't cost them anything while you (being on the other side of it) think its very unfair. Just to be reiterate, I fully support your stance that you should earn from sequestering, I'm just being a realist on what is needed to make it happen, thats all



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    I respect your stance, but on the question of farmers at both present and future, the carbon farming proposal does not allow for any trading or offsetting of CO2 sequestered or stored.

    Yet as we speak huge multinational companies can access the CO2 sequestered from my farm if a member state chose to auction it on the ETS, land I privately own and worked god dam hard planting forestry and looking after sphagnum moss rich bogland. I get nothing and the member state and big polluting companies get all the cream, reward and green public image.

    How is this in anyway fair, its grotesquely corrupt and wrong on so so many levels.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No argument there, its an unfair system to you but given the big emitters are the big boys with all the power and money, I don't see it changing any time soon as it would hurt their pocket to do so. Who do you think the IFA, Dept of Agriculture, EU etc are going to help, you or Larry Goodman/Kepak etc.

    Maybe if enough small farmers demand that the big emitters pay for credits in a fair system you might start to see change. As it stands, the big emitters in agri have all the lobbying power so everything skews in their favour in this area



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    Dublin's public transport is too much focused on getting people in/out of the city centre. Try a radial trip such as Blanchardstown (where a previous GF lived) to Parkwest (where I once worked) and anything other than a car becomes a joke.

    Think BusConnect intended to address some of these issues but that seems to be stuck in the long grass.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Well glad we got that cleared up, funny enough between dairy co-op and meat processing companies, they only account for 13 of the 154 registered Irish registered companies on the ETS (Amazon alone has 9 data centers), but nevertheless they are benefiting greatly of farmers/landowners/foresters backs.

    It absolutely sickens me that we have companies like Google, Microsoft, Amazon and Meta been able to claim that they are net zero off my and so many other not just farmers but foresters backs. It also sickens me how the mainstream media does not want to cover any of this as they too have avail of this. Yes I know there is a lot farmers can do better, we all hear about that in the media, but we never hear about how bad of a deal we are getting and might I add going to get due to big business lobby groups pushing the main hands signing the regulations and laws in the EU.

    I really feel people don't know near enough about this, and they should because its totally unfair.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    Net Zero, along with the whole carbon credits system, is just BS that was likley designed by an accountant. Pretty sure back in the 1990s the Greens called it out for what it really was, but to me the way they have now embraced it is why I view them as pure virtue-signallers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭The Real President Trump




  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭The Real President Trump


    You do realise a peat bog is actually an environmental disaster zone. Where once there was freshwater and woodland was replaced by a methane producing marsh



  • Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭The Real President Trump




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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    More BS and more taxes required to fund bean counters.

    We've enough parasites as it is. More jobs for the boys.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Really is a disgrace and is purposely kept out of the public domain and media. I'm actually so sick of all of this, you try tell people about the EU ETS scheme and how is completely favors big business at the detriment of farmers and landowners people will say your 'not well' 'crazy' and 'sure they could never do that'. People don't realise when the EU signs a legally binging regulation/bill then it has to be enacted or the member state will risk being taken to court and sued by an environmental NGO like the EPA.

    The great EPA, would you believe they actually run the EU ETS system for Ireland, talk about poacher turned game keepers. So they can actively take the member states and farmers to court if for example they choose not to re wet land, and the EPA will happily govern the EU ETS that allows the landowners stored and sequestered CO2 to be shipped off to some so called 'green' company, that has a high ESG score that subsequently will allow it to gain more capital as it shares will have to be bought by pension funds as a portion of funds will now have to be made up of high ESG scoring companies.

    So these 'green' companies that are only green due to offset effectively stolen from other sectors, can grow at an exponential rate due to endless capital, they get bigger their lobbying power gets bigger, all the while this is been overseen by the EPA, the EU and the member state.

    Buts lets blame the average citizen for not doing enough and the stupid idiot farmer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭KildareP


    It's one thing to have a gas reservoir that is slowly depleted over time and then left.

    Another to have one that is repeatedly pressurised, depleted, repressurised, repeatedly as we produce and then consume hydrogen over time. Most of the difficulty in transporting hydrogen is in the distribution of it, not necessarily the storage.

    We also have no present need to shift tens of tonnes of helium around an hour, all over the country, as would be required with hydrogen to use it for power generation on a calm, cold day.


    With warships, they started off with wind and oars. Coal allowed them to move at full steam with or without wind. Oil allowed them to do it with a significantly reduced crew while also allowing them to refuel without having to come back to port. Internal combustion allowed them to remove the massive and heavy steam plants and operate far more powerful, more fuel efficient and far more responsive ships. Nuclear took a step back somewhat and brought back the onboard steam plant but allowed ships to stay at sea for months on end, and was extremely useful for submarine use. Gas turbine brought insane power and response at the expense of fuel consumption.

    In each development or iteration, it brought advancements, something better, something faster, something more powerful, something more useful.

    What you want to do now with electricity is effectively go all the way back to the sailboat era and are banking on technology and solutions that simply don't yet exist on the scale required to plug all the gaps that to date have been naturally plugged with fossil and nuclear. We're on the road to zero emission but you refuse to even consider any of the other emission-free technologies out there. That just doesn't make any sense.


    Biomass is a complete fudge and does nothing to reduce emissions. All it does is it allows the likes of Finland to wave the "Renewables" flag around the place while generating significant business for the forestry industry. I would assume based on the outright refusal to allow Lough Ree or West Offaly Power to convert to biomass, and the reluctance to which Edenderry Power was allowed convert to biomass, that there is no appetite within government to let biomass become any sort of major player in the power market here.


    Finally, condensers provide no generation capacity - they sync the grid, that's it. If a shortfall scenario occurs, they can become extremely large draws that you risk either dragging frequency down as they try to spin back up, or you have to take offline and then find some other way of providing sync. Similarly with batteries, they do not generate, they are good for near term frequency stabilisation and the last percentile peak shaving while a slower form of generation has a chance to come online. Hence why datacentres spread their battery capacity to power key equipment just long enough for the diesel or gas generation to spin up and come online, you'd never run a DC solely off battery. It's simply not practical. The same is true for a grid.

    What effectively would have to happen in your scenario is we retain all of our existing plant and convert them to hydrogen (no working example of this anywhere to date), as well as building tens of gigawatts of offshore wind, as well as building all of the hydrogen ancillary plant (no working example of this anywhere to date) as well as building significantly more interconnector capacity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭KildareP


    I suspect that given the figures by those organisations include nuclear in the mix, that their figures would be dismissed by those who feel we should be absolutely 100% renewable only.

    I'm interested to see raw figures and costings for those who want an exclusively 100% renewable-only grid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭KildareP


    At least with nuclear you'd know what you're getting.

    Who's to say hydrogen isn't a big white elephant? No-one knows, because it hasn't been tried.

    Yet you want to pin the security of our grid entirely on it.

    If we progress 15-20 years and are still no closer to being able to plug the gap on calm, cold days, then we'll still be burning fossil fuels by the tons having spent hundreds of billions on renewables by then.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭KildareP


    And our fossil fuel generation is way higher than wind generation despite it having not much more raw nameplate capacity than wind has :)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭KildareP


    Reads to me as nothing more than a tech start up looking for research funding in the hope they'll be able develop a product...

    Speaking of which, the last time minister Ryan committed millions in funding to a company that was heralded to become Ireland's Nokia, was the Intune Networks and "Exemplar network" in 2010:

    It was going to see Ireland looped in a high speed fibre network with speeds way ahead of it's time because of Intune's high speed tunable laser that could rapidly change wavelength in real time, which would have the effect of multiple high speed optical links down one single cable.

    So where are we today?

    Well Minister Ryan's department handed the National Broadband Plan (sound familiar?) to Three Ireland to use 3G dongles which was a total disaster, Intune and the Exemplar network found it couldn't crack the fundamental problem all the other major global telecoms vendors struggled with, and the whole thing went bust in 2014. We've now spent €3bn+ on another National Broadband Plan that won't be complete until 2027 best case and leaving those reliant upon it scrambling for any alternatives they can until then.


    But hey - suddenly we're going to crack hydrogen and overcome all it's known shortcomings?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    The insanity is only getting going folks. Check out this little doozy being championed by the Greens.


    And just in case anyone has any doubts to their motives, this section makes it crystal clear. Bump the tax rate up to 60% so those not working get to reap the benefits of your toil. Tell me you're a communist without telling me, springs to mind.

    "However, the report quotes a Green Party statement from 2019 criticising this scenario, and suggesting it should be above social welfare rates to “represent a fair redistribution of national income to achieve lower levels of poverty”."

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    The slant the green-loving Journal paints here to deflect as much responsibility away from ER and other green-leaning advocates is breath-taking.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    A 20% reduction in total cars on the road by 2030,now THAT'S an objective I fully support

    Why? Is it just an anti-car agenda you have?

    If all cars are going to be EVs - meaning zero emissions as greens constantly champion, why the need to reduce car volumes?

    You've already demonstrated through various link dumps to new busses being launched as a great alternative to the car.

    Yet, I've took the majority of those routes and highlighted how they're not worth a bollix to the commuter.

    So, in your utopia, fewer people will be allowed drive and those that switch to public transport will be constantly late for work and also will have to drastically increase their time spent on commute.

    A hard sell, so it looks like the greens will have to use the stick as the carrot here is useless. But knowing the greens and their allies, they have form in getting out the stick.

    Hence, carbon taxes and other charges.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭PommieBast


    I've long lost the link but back in my Ph.D days when I had access to all sorts of online journals I came across a paper that compared the CO2 per passenger of various forms of transport. Trains, planes, cars, the lot. The worst was off-peak urban buses.



  • Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Coolcormack1979


    Had to drive from tipp to Dublin yesterday afternoon to Collect my wife from a hospital appointment and hit Dublin at peak traffic hour to do so.all I could think off was good luck to the lunatic greens trying to ban cars and keeping a functioning economy of real work and not some make belief stuff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,387 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    yea does seem that way to me also, but at least it is being considered....

    ...amazing the report doesnt mention anything about taxing the more wealthier entities in society such as large corporations more, to try fund such, and defaults to the usual suspects, i.e. labour! also no mention of also the possibility of part funding a ubi scheme by running continual deficits!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Exactly, it reads like something from the 1917 rising. Bring everyone's income in line with each other, regardless of whether you even work or not.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    When will every bus in Ireland be EV?

    Meanwhile, 4 or 5 MPG to haul nine passengers is a disgraceful way to "cut emissions" via public transport.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No clue on the exact date but to give one example, Athlone will be fully EV local buses after the Christmas. The existing buses (2019 fleet) will move to Carlow Town I think, to kick off the local bus routes there. In time those and all the rest will change to full EV.

    The NTA have orders for hundreds of EV buses and they are being delivered in tranches afaik.

    There's been a few announcements, here's one for an order of 800 as an example




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    He does have an anti car agenda that’s rooted in some weird begrudgery and wild fantasies of Ireland being like Netherlands (which has incredible road network and bypasses and much more flat, dry and densely populated than Ireland ) and nothing to do with reducing CO2

    Yet, Netherlands for all its bicycles emits more C02 than our car loving country.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    You totally miss the point. These EV busses are going to the cities where numbers on ICE busses mean that X passengers moved per MPG of fuel is worth it from a reducing carbon emissions point of view.

    Sending older busses to run on rural routes does nothing as the passenger numbers moved per MPG is a total waste of fuel and money.

    But my hunch is that rural areas will be a long time waiting for EV busses because an EV bus running out of charge halfway between Ballinasloe and Claremorris would show up EV busses for their unreliability.

    You're probably going to have three EV busses for every one ICE bus in the cities - two charging, one driving to keep up with the timetables there.



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