General Irish politics discussion thread

blanch152 · 06-12-2022 12:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962871#Comment_119962871

Yes, and you can see the progress they are making. As Eamon Ryan said, the country will move from mainly being powered by gas to mainly being power by solar thanks to the Greens. Busconnects and other public transport projects are moving as well.

My point relates to the SF desire to see the Greens eliminated. Smacks of Trumpian thinking on climate change.

FrancieBrady · 06-12-2022 12:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962892#Comment_119962892

I think the prospects for the Greens in the next election will not be down to the Shinners alone. The electorate will decide on their fate.

blanch152 · 06-12-2022 12:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962914#Comment_119962914

I think Matt Carthy has handed them a huge lifeline. The Greens will be saying at the next election that SF want them wiped out because SF want to ignore the climate change agenda. That will resonate with young voters.

FrancieBrady · 06-12-2022 12:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962962#Comment_119962962

The Greens got 7.1% at the last GE, they are consistently down at 4-5% in the polls. they are managing their own demise quite well. The electorate aren't seeing their value.

I think the reason for that, is an over weening desire to cost people money and the fact that as a party, a specifically 'green' one is obselete as the EU is now dictating the pace on climate change targets.

Sam Russell · 06-12-2022 1:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962991#Comment_119962991

The whole green agenda is being distorted by the media, and ER is not doing a good job of explaining the green agenda. In my view he is too distracted with explaining the perfect and extoling it as the solution - and we know that the perfect is the enemy of the good.

It is cheaper to be green by conserving the environment and conserving resources. This is obvious.

Using less electricity is cheaper. Using less gas is cheaper. Walk, or cycle is cheaper than driving. Using a reusable shopping bag or coffee cup is obviously better. We know all this, but it is not seen as green in a political sense.

If more people used public transport, then there would be less traffic and less traffic congestion and the 20% reduction in fares should have increased the use of PT, and hopefully, that experiment might be followed by further reductions.

The proposal to reduce agriculture emissions is seen as anti farmer. Reducing fertilizer by using mixed sward is cheaper and a green objective. Adjusting the breeding of the stock to improve their suitability is a good objective that could reduce emissions while not affecting the income of farmers. Using methane producing digesters is a nice earner for some farmers and the gas produced would provide renewable energy for when the wind is calm. Looking after the health of the soil is critical to have a long term healthy agriculture, and part of environmental sustainability. These all fit into the Green agenda.

But the Green Party are seen as anti farmer, instead of an ally to making farming better for the environment while still making it profitable.

[Disclaimer - I am not and have never been a member of the Green Party.]

Itssoeasy · 17-12-2022 12:17pm

Watching the Dáil proceedings this morning as the change over of the Taoiseach is taking place and while eamonn Ryan may be a decent guy who believes in what he says, what he says is in no way inspiring. He’s talking now and you can see the government TDs including his own Green Party ones are less then enthusiastic.

Itssoeasy · 17-12-2022 12:28pm

I might be wrong but I don’t think Mary Lou likes Leo Varadkar.

Larbre34 · 17-12-2022 3:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120006829#Comment_120006829

They reelected him after having the option of electing the apparently highly competent and more inspiring Catherine Martin. They may put up with the consequences of that decision.

Itssoeasy · 17-12-2022 3:29pm

I wonder will Leo Varadkar do one good thing today and tell Stephen Donnelly to find a new hobby ? He was the worst Health minister I’ve known and that takes in a few disasters.

Loafing Oaf · 17-12-2022 3:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120007381#Comment_120007381

Wouldn't really be his call, the convention is it's up to each party leader in a coalition to pick his 'own' ministers. One of the pol cors was saying if Martin is genuinely intending to lead FF into the next election he needs to get some new blood into the cabinet to show he is looking to the future and consequently needs to move a current incumbent out, with Donnelly being the most likely candidate.

Dual wheels · 17-12-2022 8:56pm

I am just baffled at how Leo Varadkar has become Taoiseach for a second time, I genuinely wouldn’t even put him in the top 5 in Fine Gael, he has no personality, he has a poor track record as a minister, he has never won an election for FG, he barely scrapes past the post in his own constituency and he never had a mandate to be Taoiseach, firstly taking over from enda kenny mid term and last time only via linking in with FF, it’s actually a joke and says very little for the opposition, SF back story still holds them back

Podge_irl · 18-12-2022 6:41am

Linking in with FF does give him a mandate and nor is the count he is elected on relevant. Its not that surprising how we ended up here, even if you think e.g. Coveney would do better.

blanch152 · 19-12-2022 6:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120008331#Comment_120008331

(1) A Taoiseach's mandate comes from being elected by the Dail to the position. The electorate in a general election do not have any input into the mandate for Taoiseach.

(2) The seat you get elected on in your constituency means nothing to your legitimacy. This is one of the silliest arguments made against Varadkar. If you look at the Dublin West constituency results from 2020, you will see that if SF had run two candidates instead of one, and FG had run one candidate instead of two, then Varadkar would have topped the poll and been elected on the first count. The order of election therefore had nothing to do with his popularity and all to do with the number of candidates put forward by each party.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_West_(D%C3%A1il_constituency)#2020_general_election

(3) How do you define winning an election? If it is defined as winning a majority of seats, no party has won an election since 1977. If it is defined as being the biggest party then FF won every election since it was created, bar two (2011 and 2016). SF has never one on either criteria. If you define it as going into government, then FG did win the election under Leo Varadkar.

Dual wheels · 19-12-2022 9:36pm

Coveney has proven himself to be nefarious but yes he is a more capable politician than vradkar, remember vradkars own party didn’t want him as leader, they wanted coveney

Dual wheels · 19-12-2022 9:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015105#Comment_120015105

1) A Taoiseach's mandate comes from being elected by the Dail to the position. The electorate in a general election do not have any input into the mandate for Taoiseach. - completely incorrect, I suggest you study this in more detail, the electorate have the say otherwise there is no constitution, the electorate vote based on the leader of the party bringing them into an election, if someone becomes Taoiseach outside of this juncture then they have no mandate from the people, in vradkars case he doesn’t even have a mandate from his own party and as leader in the last election he lost seats, in fact he hasn’t won any seats for FG as leader, ie, no mandate.

(2) The seat you get elected on in your constituency means nothing to your legitimacy. This is one of the silliest arguments made against Varadkar. If you look at the Dublin West constituency results from 2020, you will see that if SF had run two candidates instead of one, and FG had run one candidate instead of two, then Varadkar would have topped the poll and been elected on the first count. The order of election therefore had nothing to do with his popularity and all to do with the number of candidates put forward by each party. - if Argentina scored less than France yesterday then France would have won the World Cup…this is utter nonsense to say if FG only ran one candidate, if the Taoiseach can’t bring in a running mate in his own constituency then he has no business being there

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_West_(D%C3%A1il_constituency)#2020_general_election

(3) How do you define winning an election? If it is defined as winning a majority of seats, no party has won an election since 1977. If it is defined as being the biggest party then FF won every election since it was created, bar two (2011 and 2016). SF has never one on either criteria. If you define it as going into government, then FG did win the election under Leo Varadkar. - seriously, I’m thinking now that you are a Leo-bot, vradkar is Taoiseach only by doing a deal with FF, he lost FG seats, he lost them the last election which is why it’s utterly bizarre that he is now Taoiseach and makes a mockery of democracy, there is no opposition in the dail, this is akin to the tories and labour joining forces in the uk and go into government leaving the bottom of the barrel to provide opposition, neither FF nor FG care about having a balanced forum, they just operate as individuals to hold power for themselves

Hermy · 19-12-2022 10:08pm

It’s spelt Varadkar.

Podge_irl · 19-12-2022 10:20pm

completely incorrect, I suggest you study this in more detail, the electorate have the say otherwise there is no constitution, the electorate vote based on the leader of the party bringing them into an election, if someone becomes Taoiseach outside of this juncture then they have no mandate from the people, in vradkars case he doesn’t even have a mandate from his own party and as leader in the last election he lost seats, in fact he hasn’t won any seats for FG as leader, ie, no mandate.

There is almost nothing correct in this. Please point out where in the constitution there is any statement about the electorate voting based on the leader of the party bringing them into an election?

Also Varadkar does have a mandate from his own party. And from the electorate.

What exactly is it you suggest people study in more detail?

blanch152 · 20-12-2022 1:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120015980#Comment_120015980

I really don't know where to start with this. It shows such a lack of understanding of Irish politics and democracy.

Let's just take the first point. You state clearly that

"the electorate have the say otherwise there is no constitution, the electorate vote based on the leader of the party bringing them into an election, if someone becomes Taoiseach outside of this juncture then they have no mandate from the people,"

This is just complete gobbledy-gook. Firstly, there is no such provision in the Constitution. Secondly, the Constitution is upheld by the Courts, so where is the court challenge to Varadkar being Taoiseach. Thirdly, there are precedents. I would just point you first to the 1948 general election:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Irish_general_election

Richard Mulcahy was leader of Fine Gael, yet John A. Costello became Taoiseach. Now how do you square that happening with your constitutional nonsense?

Dual wheels · 20-12-2022 2:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120017702#Comment_120017702

You’re talking through your hat man, you really don’t understand modern day politics

blanch152 · 20-12-2022 2:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018042#Comment_120018042

No, I don't think I have a problem at all.

As I requested, explain to me where in the Constitution does it say that the leader of the biggest party becomes Taoiseach or that it is unconstitutional to change Taoisigh between elections? As you don't like going back to 1948, how about John Bruton becoming Taoiseach a couple of decades ago? Was that also unconstitutional and challenged in the Courts?

Peregrinus · 21-12-2022 3:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018042#Comment_120018042

You've already confessed to being "baffled" by Varadkar's election as Taoiseach, and yet you think it's others who don't understand modern day politics?

L1011 · 21-12-2022 9:39am

Those who parrot the SF line about getting elected on lower counts are going to have to do a lot of deleting of old posts after the next election, as SF candidates will be getting in on much lower counts than in 2020 - as they'll run an appropriate number of them.

Romping home with vastly over a quota on count one shows poor candidate selection and vote management; not that you're actually more popular. Order of election is completely irrelevant and was only ever used to decide the Alderman title on councils anyway (first elected in each ward).

Trying to make it become a thing just to attack politicians who did proper vote and transfer management will backfire, and it'll be hilarious when it does. Some of the parroters are not SF supporters, but whatever Independent or minor candidate they support is also likely to end up coming in on a late count, so its an odd position to take.

blanch152 · 21-12-2022 11:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120020712#Comment_120020712

It actually scares me sometimes how little is known and understood about how our political system works. Decades ago I was taught Civics in school and learned about how the political system works.

Whether people have forgotten what they learnt, or they are reliant on Facebook and Twitter to tell them what to think, the level of ignorance is incredible. I know the false narrative put about by SF that they "won" the last election doesn't help, but surely, given our levels of education, people can see through that.

rock22 · 21-12-2022 1:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120018042#Comment_120018042

Are you old enough to vote?

lumphammer2 · 22-12-2022 5:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120016062#Comment_120016062

My biggest problem with Varadkar is this .... Speech of Taoiseach Leo Varadkar 27 March 2020 - MerrionStreet

This will always been the defining moment of his last time as leader .... tipping Ireland into the grip of a cynical dictatorship that others continued to copy that did not solve what it was supposed to solve and caused problems we still have to this day ....

Before that I had a more favourable view of him .... he helped bring an end to civil war politics and other rubbish .... but I cannot forgive 27th March 2020 ... it was a black day for Ireland ...

Hermy · 22-12-2022 8:51am

I must have been asleep when that happened.

How long did the dictatorship last?

And how did it end?

Was there a coup or did he go willingly?

PommieBast · 22-12-2022 8:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962991#Comment_119962991

Has anyone number-crunched the stats on how many Green TDs got over the line due to the transfer of quota surpluses from other parties?

Peregrinus · 23-12-2022 3:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120026676#Comment_120026676

Of the 12 Green TDs elected, only Eamon Ryan secured in excess of a quota on the first count. The other eleven were all elected with the help of transfers from other parties. Even Catherine Martin, who topped the poll in Dublin Rathdown, did not get a quota on the first count. But a couple of points about this:

They weren't necessarily elected on the back of transfers from other parties - there were transfers from independents too. I haven't tried to break those out.
We'd expect this. In a three-seat constituency, the quota will be more than 25% of the vote; in a four-seater, more than 20%; in a five-seater, more than 16.67%. Parties other than the majors will nearly always have nearly all their candidates elected on the back of transfers. Even for the majors, the large majority of candidates will normally be elected on the back of transfers (but some of these will of course be transfers from within the party).
It cuts both ways; in constituencies where the Greens were not successful, other candidates were elected on the back of transfers from the Greens.
It tends all to come out in the wash; nationally, the Greens secured 7.1% of the vote and won 7.5% of the seats.

PommieBast · 23-12-2022 11:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027746#Comment_120027746

Thinking about my own (then-)constituency I suspect if MLMcD had a running mate it would have been Gary Gannon of the SDs rather than Neasa Hourigan of the Greens losing out. Christy Burke is a bit of a curveball that muddies the water though.

Sam Russell · 23-12-2022 2:45pm

We have had this multi seat, STV voting system for a century, and it is so simple for the voter - just put the candidates in the order of your preference. It could not be simpler for the voter, and the choice might be the voter likes candidates with red hair, or said they will give a particular candidate a preference and some voters vote down the card for a party and then stop. When the votes are counted, the daft ones cancel each other out. It does not matter - we get the politicians we deserve. (Unfortunately)

It is the political parties that try to game the system, and by doing so, corrupt it. Vote management is a corruption to try and spread the voters choice to the party that advocates it. The number of candidates fielded can effect the result - too few and the party gets fewer seats, too many and the party loses seats. But overall, it makes little difference, as someone else gets the seat and are equally preferred by the voters. The last seat may be down to just a few votes between the last few candidates.

Our system is very fair in that those parties with over 5% of the first preference votes, tend to get a very representative number of seats compared to their vote despite the shenanigans of the political parties to game the system.

General Irish politics discussion thread

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