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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭paddyisreal


    Tbh I think you are totally wrong on what the greens are. I am actually of the opinion that the greens have an agenda to achieve there aims which borders on totalitarianism and they don't give a fiddler's of the consequences. They would destroy the economy in the morning if they thought it was for the greater good. Eamon Ryan is actually the most sensible of the lot and that's saying a lot !



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭paddyisreal


    Yep,

    It reads like something a transition year student would compose. Laughable stuff



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    You can't put a price on Eamo's happiness though. Imagine his grin as he walked around COP27 telling all and sundry about his 30GW offshore plan. That alone is worth every penny we will pay for it with.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    LOL!

    Today's announcement was titled the...

    ...wait for it...

    Climate Action Plan

    Now when you plan to do something, especially something as big as this you need to:

    • State your goals
    • Identify the benefits
    • List the costs
    • List the actions
    • Identify obstacles and roadblocks
    • Review and Revise

    Does today's plan follow all of the above?

    Short answer, no. It's full of shyte.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And yet the actions it lays out permeate through every govt department, every local council and agency, impacting on decisions at all levels.



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Hornsea CfD prices have dropped over time (2012 values) in the same location for 15 year contracts.

    Hornsea 1 £140/MWh

    Hornsea 2 £57.50/MWh

    Hornsea 3 £37.50/MWh => so a 40% efficiency round trip to hydrogen and back would give an energy cost for stored electricity of £93.75/MWh


    Hornsea has very roughly 50% capacity factor so on average you'd get half that.

    If you used 40% efficient hydrogen storage, you could get 1/3 of the nameplate capacity as always on baseload. Here the blue area is used to produce hydrogen at times when you get more than 1/3rd of nameplate capacity.

    Green area is direct baseload from wind at £37.50/MWh (72.5% of the time). Pink area is baseload from stored hydrogen at £93.75/MWh. (27.5%)

    Average cost £53/MWh

    And that's the worst case, using wind at just one location and no other renewables, no fossil fuel or other generators, no demand reduction , no interconnectors. And paying full strike price rather than market price.

    For 100MW of hydrogen plant up and running by 2026 it's £150m. Since we can use 20% of current emissions until 2030 we can wait until the prices come down through economies of scale when the factories producing GW's come online. Also more of the windfarms will be out of contract and competing on the open market by the time we need to use hydrogen.


    If you use Iron flow batteries or sodium-sulphur you could double the efficiency for daily loads so you could get closer to 2.5x wind providing 1x baseload. This would reduce the amount of hydrogen you need as it would only be used for extended calm periods, saving you on hydrolyser and storage costs.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    All that good stuff is in the Annex. Now, considering the Climate Action bill annex took 6 months to release after the bill was published. This one should be about the same amount of time.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The US announcement was great to see, 30GW by 2030, 40GW by 2040

    They're going to smash through that number though. Recently announced plans by New York, New Jersey and Massachusetts alone are for 45 GW by 2040, and 17.5 GW of that has already secured financing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno




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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,059 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Until the next Republican led administration you mean?

    Every policy in the US has a maximum shelf life of about 18 months. Thats it. Then big oil will be back in the driving seat again.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The US certainly has its weird political quirks.

    Thankfully we don't have similar issues here so the path forward will remain consistent regardless of who is elected. It was pretty clear when all but a handful of independent TD's approved the climate legislation.

    The legal safeguards also ensure backsliding won't be possible.

    Plus building it into medium to long term strategic plans ensures it'll outlive even the next govt e.g. the MATS, NPF, procurement etc

    All good stuff that ensures we don't have to suffer from the wackiness of the US system



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Please stop using out of date links to old out of date renewables costs. It's not a valid argument. It just highlights how fast renewable costs are falling.


    Back of envelope cost for baseload from Wind + Hydrogen is £53/MWh for 15 years vs committing £92.50 for nuclear for 35 years.

    And that £53 drops if there are any other ways of matching supply and demand without using hydrogen at 40% efficiency. And we don't need to do until sometime between 2030-2050 depending on what else is used.

    It's been a very long time since a nuclear power plant in North America or Europe has been completed less than a decade late or less than double the original budget. So the relatively quick build times and 15 year contracts of wind mean they could power the grid on contract and probably switch to LCOE while waiting for a nuclear plant to be constructed.



    https://guidetoanoffshorewindfarm.com/wind-farm-costs - the ratios of costs are OK, the costs are old.

    Here's the PDF Published on behalf of The Crown Estate and the Offshore Renewable Energy Catapult January 2019

    So they were using 2018 references at the very latest. Not today's costs. And most certainly not tomorrow's costs.


    A reminder how much costs have fallen

    Hornsea 1 £140/MWh

    Hornsea 2 £57.50/MWh

    Hornsea 3 £37.50/MWh

    Hornsea 4 ?



    Departments of the Interior, Energy, Commerce, and Transportation Launch Initiatives on Floating Offshore Wind to Deploy 15 GW, Power 5 Million Homes, and Lower Costs 70% by 2035 ... to $45 per megawatt-hour.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,059 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Will it remain consistent?

    The two big Government parties voted for it to keep the Greens quiet, knowing the consequences of doing so would not be realised in this Dáil and any policy can be easily reversed once the Greens have been obliterated in 2025.

    I'm not contradicting you just for the sake of it either. Once these draconian measures start to register impacts in sectors of the economy and in the ability to recruit in certain locations and in Ireland's competitiveness globally, FG, FF and you'd better believe SF as well, will row back on the offending measures - including the legislative handcuffs - faster than a currach in a gale force tailwind.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    All parties, without exception, voted to approve the climate legislation.

    Like I said, the legal safeguards prevent backsliding. Its those very same legal safeguards that resulted in the current CAP's after the Supreme Court ruled against the govt and those legal safeguards have since been strengthened.

    That's not to say that future CAP's won't be changed or modified in the approach, but so long as they can still be shown to adhere to the emission reduction targets and timelines they'll be fine. If they don't stand up to scrutiny then they will be challenged and the govt of the day will lose again.

    Someone mentioned to me last week that they thought that if SF get close to power they'll look to bring the GP into the fold to let them keep the climate Transport and Environment portfolio as it would suit them to not have to deal with it. Don't know how realistic that is but anything is possible I guess and the GP would grab that with both hands as it would mean a decade of them effecting change and progress.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,115 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Did you miss the green plan of 1 million EV`s by 2030 or are you just being purposely naive.

    ICE motorists also pay income tax and VAT, plus the additional taxes of VRT c.€780M, and motor tax c.€907M, as well as last year paying €2.23 Bn. tax on diesel and €558M on petrol based on current prices. So where you got the idea that ICE motorists are not paying tax for road usage I have no idea.

    ICE motorists are presently paying almost €4.5 Billion per year in tax for road usage whereas cyclists and EV drivers are effectively paying sfa. That`s the reality.

    So again, with all this green gospel of user pays, why are they freeloading on the back of others when it comes to paying for road usage ?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 18,244 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Not the morning then is it. Thanks for confirming you were just making rubbish up 👍

    There is no such thing as a road usage tax but I'm happy for you to correct me. You might point out the relevant section of the various Taxation Acts.

    You're moaning that motorists pay income tax and vat but then claim others are freeloading and paying "sfa". Do you think cyclists and EV owners don't pay any tax at all? It seems like you do.

    In addition most cyclists are also vehicle owners so they pay their fair share already that you are moaning about!

    Why don't you buy an electric car and join in on this tax free, freeloading nirvana that you think exists and are complaining about?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Lose in what way exactly?

    The supreme court can't set policy. I'm not sure what teeth the climate action bill actually has but what is the mechanism for the SC telling the government what to do?

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭ginger22


    Why do lads keep rolling out his Hydrogen from excess wind BS. Where is it being done at scale at the moment. What do you do with this hydrogen, how do you transport it, store it, turn it into electricity when you need it. All pie in the sky stuff. Like Star Trek.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,115 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    You are very poor on figures and it seems comprehension is also a problem. I said "if" ICE`s were banned in the morning. But then 2030 is not a million years away either and along with these 1 million EV`s It`s also the year when the sale of new ICE cars are supposed to be banned.

    So is there a green plan to make up for the shortfall from ICE motorist tax revenue or not, or rather than do what they preach on user pays, the greens intend to piggyback off everyone via general taxation ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,059 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Exactly.

    DaCor is very wedded to the legal guarantees to prevent backsliding, but of course legal guarantees only exist thanks to legislation passed by the Oireachtas. The next Dáil, or the one after, could pass an Act to reverse it all in an instant, if that was the prevailing wind and the Supreme Court would,or could, do nothing as the legislature has primacy.

    Its been done in a dozen primary areas of Government in the last 12 years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,115 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Not that far away really when you see that all new diesel and petrol car sales are to be banned by 2030 as well as those 1 million E.V`s on the road.

    I have shown you where ICE motorists not only pay income tax and vat, but also pay a further €4.5 billion annually, with €2.8 billion of that directly related to road usage whereas neither cyclist or EV motorists sfa tax related to road usage.

    Buy an EV. Have you seen the green favoured 30GW offshore plan ? Based on that I would need to buy a team of horses to pull it with the price that would cost to charge it. The ESB have already increased the cost by 50% even without that proposed insanity.l



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,115 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    How many times does it have to be pointed out to you that CapEx costs are going up not down with the price of turbines set to increase unless you expect those manufacturing them to continue doing so at a loss. Vestas has been selling at 8% below below cost, Siemens Gamesa lost close to €1 Bn this year and effectively has gone bust and General Electric has loses of $2 Bn.

    And where are these back of the envelope figures for hydrogen CapEx, production, storage and distribution plus the associated CapEx for the required desalination plants and their operation costs ?

    You do realise don`t you that even for the highly unlikely outcome of our strike price being the same as the U.K. for offshore resulting in that Wind + your back of an envelope Hydrogen being £53 for the consumer that price is doubled, as nobody other than the consumer will be paying for all of the above, which would result in it being £106 compared to your example of £92.50 for nuclear.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,115 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    No surprise there.

    Your by now familiar default position when you have not a clue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    The greens true to their political ideology think that they can over ride legislation if it suits them. A dangerous position to hold and the sooner they along with FG and FF are ejected from power the better.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,059 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Its impossible that they will all be ejected from power, because on their BEST day, Sinn Féin will get 50 seats and a majority next time out will be 86.

    I expect the Greens to all but disappear, Communist-People before Logic to stay in the margins at 5 or 6 and the Indys to take a hit from SF to be around mid teens.

    So where does that leave you?



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,244 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    You're spoofing again making up garbage about horses now. You claimed ev owners were freeloading and paying SFA, and now you're complaining it would cost you too much. Absolutely comical 🤣 Most cyclists also own a car so they do pay. Doesn't suit your silly agenda though so you just ignore that.

    Clearly you're not a serious poster as you are continuously arguing strawmen and pure nonsense that nobody mentioned. Waste of time. 👍



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    While congestion charges are not on the cards right now, they are not ruled out either

    A tripling of the provision of public transport will go a long way towards reducing congestion but if it, and active travel measures, don't get the anticipated gains then we can expect to see congestion charges revisited



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