Neighbour and house left to a grandson, not his mother

Gorteen · 22-12-2022 9:17pm #1

My 50 year old female neighbour, who is a single mum of a 30 year old man, lives in her family home. Her mother died about a year ago and left the house to the grandson. He happens to live next door to his mother but they have a terrible relationship. He's a bit of a pr*ck, to be honest.

She has spoken to a solicitor about challenging the will. The solicitor says there may be a risk that, even if she wins her legal challenge, the costs will be considerable and the costs will be taken from the estate, i.e the house.

Is she loses, would the court evict her to sell the house to pay the legal costs? I doubt it myself, but I have absolutely no legal basis for this assumption.

Any knowledgeable or informed views on this situation?

Augme · 22-12-2022 9:23pm

If she loses she doesn't own the house. She would be required to find other means to pay her debt.

Bicyclette · 22-12-2022 9:26pm

Is the house that was left to the son, the same house she is currently living in? Or is it a different house?

Gorteen · 22-12-2022 10:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027072#Comment_120027072

Same house. She lived with and cared for her mother and father (who passed years ago). She has lived there almost her entire life... Has limited income and has nowhere else to live. She worries that her son will make her life miserable and use his "ownership" of the house to control her... She may be right, sadly!

Ginger83 · 22-12-2022 10:45pm

I thought solicitors charge on an ongoing basis. Does she have the means for a legal challenge?

blackbox · 22-12-2022 10:46pm

Unfortunately, her best course of action is probably to make up with the son and hope he gives her a good deal on the rent.

awsah · 23-12-2022 9:29am

you can't challenge a will because you don't like the outcome

however, as a child of the mother she cold bring a section 117 application and argue (if it is true) that she was not properly provided for in the will.

she might also have a case of estopple where she would be entitled to the house as she lived there to care for her parents, however she would have to prove she acted to her detriment, ie she didn't pursue better opportunities as she was caring for her parents. and also a promise would have to had been made that she be left the house if she stayed and cared for them

either of these applications will cost the estate money but any child is entitled to bring section 117 - this is just from simple reading of a probate book, most definitely not legal advice but something she should speak to her own independent solicitor about. solicitor for the estate represents the estate and if she wasn't left anything then they do not act for her.

Oscar_Madison · 23-12-2022 9:47am

Some guidance here OP- it’s actually quite a good article and it highlights that children don’t necessarily have an automatic right of inheritance -the key question to ask is, was the mother of sound mind when she wrote the will and can it be proved, or proved otherwise?

Also, while on the face of it, the decision of the mother may seem quite cruel, there MAY be more to this story other than what you’ve been told.

And also did the mother leave anything at all to her daughter? ie savings. Jewellery etc?

Grandson will almost certainly have inheritance tax to pay and may have to sell the house to pay that tax.

Independent legal advice is the way to go in the first instance but as mentioned, costs may become prohibitive and depending on outcome, if she’s successful the house may have to be sold to pay costs or the daughter may have a significant legal bill to pay herself if not.

For me, the story highlights the need for people to make wills early and to let their loved ones know - assuming the grandmother was elderly, there is a possibility of coercion here- was a previous Will written and only changed recently ? Was the mother in poor health and potentially with dementia when the Will was written? I’m not saying this is the case and as I said above you may not know the full story here but the mother herself, as career, would certainly have a view on this.

https://www.michaelmonahansolicitor.ie/so-you-want-to-challenge-a-will-in-2020-section-117-is-the-relevant-law-answered/

Mrs OBumble · 23-12-2022 9:48am

She needs to apply for council housing. There will be a waiting list. But once she reaches age 55, she becomes eligible for a wider range of properties.

NUTLEY BOY · 23-12-2022 2:14pm

First things first.

The lady in question needs to obtain a copy of the will that was admitted to probate. It all starts there.

A copy of the will, once admitted to probate, can be obtained from the Probate Office for a fee.

A will admitted to probate is a public document.

Gorteen · 23-12-2022 8:03pm

Thanks to everyone who has commented.

She cared for her parents during many years of illness of both father and latterly mother. Never married and it could be argued that she did not pursue an "independent" life because of her caring role. If grandson gets the house, he may have to sell??? Can he do that with his mother having a legal right to live in the house or does he have to wait until his mother either leaves the house voluntarily (although nowhere else to go) or when she dies.

As far as I know, her mother had no money, jewellery or other wealth. It is a small old cottage with not much value I would guess. I just wondered if she won or lost the case, the house is the estate and would the legal bills mean the house have to be sold immediately. This woman is in her 50's and would then be made homeless... that doesn't sound right.

It sounds like, either way, she ends up with nothing! What does she have to lose going to court? She has nothing right now!

Ginger83 · 23-12-2022 8:20pm

She could pay for a consultation with a solicitor to find out her options but I can't see her challenging a will without the means to fund it.

Del2005 · 23-12-2022 8:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120029936#Comment_120029936

Can he do that with his mother having a legal right to live in the house

Was this in the will, i.e. a person can live in the house till they die or marry is sometimes in wills when leaving the property to another person, or what makes you think she has a legal right to live in a house she does not own or rent? If she does have this right then her son can do nothing no matter how good or bad there relationship is.

Gorteen · 24-12-2022 1:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120029984#Comment_120029984

Yes, the will says she can live there for the duration of her life. But as I said, I know he is a pr*ck and he has made her life difficult, e.g locking sheds so she cannot put her turf indoors, etc. I think she worries that he could move into 'her' house and make if an intolerable situation that she has to move out, in which case she is homeless and he can sell the house

alias no.9 · 24-12-2022 1:19am

Being honest about it, the son would be better off if the house was left to his mother with him eventually inheriting it from her than being left the house by the grandmother with her having a lifetime right of residency.

He has a house that he cant sell (or could sell at a huge discount), must maintain and probably has a tax bill to top it all off. The best thing this lady can do is understand the full parameters of her lifetime residency.

Senature · 24-12-2022 8:27am

Something seems odd op. This lady is in her 50s and has a son. Has she never lived independently of her parents and set up her own home? Is there other factors at play here, she seems to have totally neglected to plan for her own security. Adults are not generally entitled to inherit from their parents.

I agree with a previous poster, both mother and son have been left in rather poor circumstances. Mother doesn't own the house, but needs to live there, son does own the house, but can't sell it or have freedom of use.

Gorteen · 24-12-2022 9:51am

That's fairly accurate. I've suggested they talk it through but they are both in a constant state of tension / argument. I know form people who know him better than me that he is a bit of a prick.

Worst case scenario for her is that whatever the outcome a large legal bill needs to be paid and the house needs to be sold. Then she is homeless and there is nothing left for either of them.

Just thinking this through. If the legal costs have to come from the estate (the house) would the court insist the house is sold and therefore make her homeless?

Count Dracula · 24-12-2022 10:13am

If the son had any sense he would challenge the will to reduce his tax bill, he could state his grandmother was daft at the time. He gets the gaff for mothing when his mother passes it on.

He might have to sell the whole lot otherwise, rough.

Marcusm · 24-12-2022 12:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120030901#Comment_120030901

You might be raising more issues that they can cope with. If she has a right of residence or (better) a life interest in the house then, provided she can maintain herself, she has a place to live without interference from him or anyone else. She needs to understand whether she has a duty to maintain the house and to what standard. If the son has a large tax liability then he might be forced to sell the house but that would be subject to her rights, ie she could not be turfed out provided the Will has been drafted properly. There are relatively few such sales in Ireland but they do occur.

there should not be any scaremongering or fear raising without fully understanding the will. If the son continues to cause her issues she can see about getting a safety order or a barring order if he is interfering with the property.

TooTired123 · 24-12-2022 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120030947#Comment_120030947

Mothers in her 50s. Probably live another 40 years.

TooTired123 · 24-12-2022 2:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120030901#Comment_120030901

This lady needs just one consultation with a solicitor to establish what her legal position is regarding this house. I can’t understand why she doesn’t give herself some peace and make an appointment for early in the new year. If her son is coming on to property she has a right to reside peacefully in the she needs to either reach out to AGS or stop complaining. There’s no other way round it.

endofrainbow · 24-12-2022 3:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120031227#Comment_120031227

Whats the difference between a life interest and a right of residency?

Marcusm · 25-12-2022 3:07pm

A right of residency is the personal right to live in the house. A life interest is an entitlement to the house for life, ie you could let it to someone else.

seagull · 10-01-2023 4:46pm

It might be in the son's best interest to decline his inheritance. That way, it goes to the mother, and he doesn't have to worry about the tax on it. He can then inherit it tax free from the mother in due course, assuming she doesn't decide to leave it to the cat's home.

endofrainbow · 10-01-2023 6:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090840#Comment_120090840

Would he not be liable for inheritance tax?

TherapyBoy · 10-01-2023 7:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120091200#Comment_120091200

His allowance would be a lot higher if he inherits from his mother.

Inheriting from his grandmother, he pays something like 30% on anything over €30,000. Inheriting from Mum he only pays the 30% on anything over €325,000.

(anyone with exact figures & rates feel free to correct me, I’m not certain on the current numbers)

endofrainbow · 10-01-2023 9:32pm

My reference was to a previous post stating it would be tax free....

TherapyBoy · 10-01-2023 10:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120091955#Comment_120091955

If the entire inheritance is worth €200,000 & he inherits it from his grandmother it’ll cost him roughly 30% of €170,000 to keep it. If his mother inherits it, because its value is less than the allowance of €325,000 she wouldn’t have to pay anything in inheritance tax & would essentially inherit the estate tax-free. If he inherits the estate from his mother whenever she passes on, & it was still worth less than the allowance, then he would also inherit it tax-free.

It’s pushing things potentially a long way down the road but it could work out for him if he can’t afford to pay whatever the tax bill would be.

catonafence · 11-01-2023 4:06pm

Please make your neighbour aware that she only has a matter of months from the time a grant of probate issues to make a s117 application and should speak to a solicitor before she runs out of time.

*It used to be 6 months, I am unaware as to whether or not this has been changed as recommended by the LRC to 12 months ( but maybe someone else could advise on this point?)

Gorteen · 11-01-2023 5:08pm

I've spoken to her while trying to not get involved, if you know what I mean. She has spoken to a solicitor who initially said she had a good case because she had cared for both her parents into their later life and up until their passing and adequate provision hadn't been made for her. She has siblings who are all doing well and have no interest in the house. However, lately the solicitor has been suggesting that her son, who it would seem is very stubborn about the whole affair, is determined to fight for "what is his" through the courts. My neighbour has been told that no matter who wins, there could be a substantial legal bill (for both sides presumably) because the son is the executor and the costs would come from the estate, namely the house in question. I think I've got that right, from what she told me.

So she could be in a position, even if she won, that she would have to sell the house and thus become homeless so that the legal costs are met. That doesn't sound fair, but what do I know???

seagull · 12-01-2023 4:59pm

Has she established whether she has a right of residency in the house?

Gorteen · 12-01-2023 5:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099410#Comment_120099410

I don't know. She's lived there for 50 years since she was a baby

Calahonda52 · 12-01-2023 5:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099410#Comment_120099410

This is the key piece of the puzzle which should have been made clear in the opening post.

Gorteen · 12-01-2023 7:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099462#Comment_120099462

So what make someone have a right of residency?

ohnonotgmail · 13-01-2023 11:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100129#Comment_120100129

something in writing to that effect.

13-01-2023 11:45am

@Gorteen

However, lately the solicitor has been suggesting that her son, who it would seem is very stubborn about the whole affair, is determined to fight for "what is his" through the courts.

Did she consult the same solicitor her son uses? Otherwise, how would they know of what her son is planning? If so, she should seek advice from a solicitor not involved with her son.

Call me cyncial, but the solicitor could be interested in wracking up a big fee for themself, playing mother and son off against each other.

Children over 18 have no automatic right of inheritance from a parent. I'd be skeptical of a solicitor telling someone they had a good case on grounds of not being provided for by their parents at age 50!

seagull · 16-01-2023 6:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100129#Comment_120100129

It would have been in the will. Something along the lines of

the house is left to Tom, but Mary has the right to reside there during her lifetime.

Gorteen · 16-01-2023 10:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120116821#Comment_120116821

Yes, she is named in the will as having a right to live there for her life

16-01-2023 10:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120117884#Comment_120117884

Well then the young man will have to go swing for it won’t he.

My auld lad remarried and the same applies with his house. It’s left to his children, however, his wife has the right to reside there her lifetime if she likes.

It was done as such on the off chance one of her kids or I guess me or my siblings fall out with her we can’t boot her out. Yes we’d all have to agree or one of us buy out the others shares, but either way it can’t be done while she’s alive.

Not that I or any of them wants to, but it makes sense to me why it’s there. I just can’t see a way for him to force her out or “fight for what’s his”. Wills are not easily contested, seeing as the one who wrote it is dead, I don’t think you’ll find they’re often changed after the fact.

Neighbour and house left to a grandson, not his mother

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