Sinead Diver Runs 2:21:34 In Valencia At 45 Years Old!! Becomes The Fastest Irish Woman In History

Murph_D · 16-12-2022 8:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120002444#Comment_120002444

Actually I used Kiptoo's 2:11 at Madrid this year (presumably the pending M45 WR), not the softer Lagat time that Beck talks about (still the official WR). That's a 8.6% differential from Kipchoge's WR, which seems reasonably solid to me. If you compare Sinead's time to that, it's only 7.9% slower. That's a very low gender difference - exceeded in the 5k to M range only by Sinead's own HM 1:09 F45 record, which is itself 9.8% slower than the overall female WR, and a mere 6.1% slower than the M45 HM WR (Yegon's 1:05:01 from 2006). (Just throwing in those gender differences, something Beck doesn't really dwell on, for the hell of it - can't have a discussion without good data!)

Should have been clearer about all that, apologies. When I say I verified his numbers, I mean I looked up 5k, 10k, HM and M records and M/F45 records and compared them. It shows a range more like 8-13% for men, and 9.8-14.5% for women (prior to Sinead's recent marathon). Yep some of these times seem soft, but certainly not all of them.

6run28 · 16-12-2022 9:26pm

Of course if you start running at 35 you can improve. But your body is at its peak potential at a younger age than 45, natural aging will be factor whether you were running or not. With all things being equal the same training at 30 and at 45 would result in a faster run at 30.

average_runner · 17-12-2022 2:54pm

He was to get 200,000 for winning the major alone but the majors change their purse either just before or after it.

Valencia now becoming very attractive but its timing in the calendar is still not great

marathon2022 · 18-12-2022 4:47pm

The one thing I noticed watching this runner is the shape she is in, she doesn't have a gram extra on her. Also she seems very motivated in proving people wrong about running to an elite standard during her 40s.

babacool · 24-12-2022 7:04pm

What I find “funny” is (not only here but also other threads), it’s usually “oh that person can’t be clean. This person is cheating. How could they?” Just because someone produces a great time (PB that’s called. Think most of us head those every now and then) it must be down to cheating.

and then there are those who say “oh why is it always they are cheating and such. Can we not just appreciate a great result?” (Think someone else raised that earlier on… most are either a or b but never pink).

my take is “who cares if done clean or not. She suffered either way as she pushed to her limits. And nowadays times are irrelevant anyways as you just never know if it is pure performance or shoe assistance or doping or tail wind (can also be a massive factor on a round course. One section that’s open you have tailwind and when you turn houses etc could provide shelter for the headwind) or whatnot”. Let’s face it, how many of us non elite runners have taken paracetamol before a marathon? Or nose spray? Or some other salt tablets etc without checking if there is anything in it that could be on the forbidden fruit list? yet no one sees an issue with that even if we run a PB! We just celebrate and pass it on to the next runner “hi, last time when I ran my 3:47 marathon I took 3 pills before the race and had 5 bottles of a special water mix handed to me at non waterstations. It’s all good…”.

but if an elite does that (ie water handed out at non designated stations) “oh this must be something illegal”

So maybe she has found something that has helped her (like a really good beetroot shot) or maybe she got carried (literally) by a fast group of runners when no one looked or she really just had an awesome race… who cares. Let’s enjoy that Australien Marathon running is on the map!

Murph_D · 24-12-2022 7:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120032050#Comment_120032050

Well I don’t do any of that, including the paracetamol. I am not sure if painkillers are cheating or not, I just think it’s a bad idea and anyway don’t think it would help me personally even if it IS legal (I’d very rarely take painkillers anyway in any situation).

But you’re an adult and can do what you like. But if it’s dodgy I won’t be telling you ‘well done’. 😉

babacool · 24-12-2022 8:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120032131#Comment_120032131

No one said I do. Find it extremely risky as it may mask something more serious and then boom you collapse by overdoing it.

Though I did take nose spray before a half in 2018 and ran a PB (beaten since without nose spray 😉) but didn’t check if there is anything in it that might be on the illegal list. Same with food. All the stuff I eat and think it’s all ok, who knows if there aren’t any ingredients in there that could be on the list (think elite athletes have to be really careful and check everything twice).

my point is, I’m certain many of us have had something that is considered performance enhancing and if tested we would get a ban. Not because we did it intentionally but just didn’t know better. But we celebrate nonetheless.

and if someone takes paracetamol or some other medication and runs a PB we congratulate and not question it. There are so many who improve over the course of a year from let’s say a 4hr marathon to a sub3 and we celebrate. There are so many who run a sub3 in their first ever marathon and we celebrate. No one asks first “ok, what did you eat? What medication did you take? Show me your 20 test results!”

so why are we doing so for those runners? A 2:21 for her is probably the same as a 3:15 for you (not certain what your PB is. So please don’t take any offence here) or a 2:28 for me. Yet I’m certain if I ever get there (and I will) I won’t have done anything illegal (that I’m aware of) and no one will ask me for my training records, medical records, nutrition list etc. (I would probably feel honoured though if someone does 😁). So why questioning her result or any other elite runner? just celebrate a good race. A decent result. A PB. The only people who should really “worry” about her being clean or not are those runners who may have missed out on prize money if she wasn’t and her sponsors (unless they helped with it). Everyone else… simply enjoy watching the progress 🙂

Lazare · 24-12-2022 10:46pm

My main takeaway from this thread is that I need to chase my BQ at Valencia.

Ceepo · 24-12-2022 10:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120032222#Comment_120032222

With all due respect, I'm not even sure where to begin with this post.

I doubt may would have taking something that would be considered performance enhancing without knowing it. Most of the things that are banned are hard to get without some research except maybe some medication. Even then you probably wouldn't take it it the quantity that is need to gain any real advantage. That's not to say you can't, more it's harder than most would think.

Yes many runners will improve over the course of a year or more, if someone who runs 4 hr and take a paracetamol they wouldn't run 3 hrs. If they take a paracetamol it's not going to improve them. If they do take something illegal and they improve for 4 hrs to 3 hrs then they are just a numpty. Yes they're cheating but not gaining anything from it only maybe some bragging and kudos from a few people. You can't compare this to someone who takes something illegal and then wins prize money, or bigger sponsor deals, appearance fees, or breaks a national record.

As for the shoes, there maybe some argument for this a few years ago when they were only available to someone athletes, now every top athlete has the opportunity to wear them. Of course this has improved times, times have improved for everyone (although to various degrees)

A 2.21 for her or any other elite woman is still considered world class even with carbon shoes, a 3.15 is achieveable for a huge amount of runners even master runners while 2.28 is considered faster it's only a good club runner standard for males, if someone needs peds to run 2.28, or takes peds and only runs 2.28 (male) they are just pityful.

Athletes who have a demonstrate progressive results sequence are less likely to be "questioned" and while she has, her age profile will certainly raises orange flags around that performance. Again that's not to say its not a ligit performance, but as I said in a previous post, history has shown us to doubt some unbelievable performance.

The reason why there needs to be a list of of banned substances is to protect athlete's health, or we would be back to athletes dying in their sleep again. Races can be just as entertaining without peds.

babacool · 24-12-2022 11:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120032470#Comment_120032470

Look, you focus on “paracetamol” and shoes. I mentioned those as an example. I have no clue of what can and can’t be taken. What amount it would give you a benefit and how many days prior to a race etc. that’s not the point. and the shoe discussion isn’t one anymore. So no real point on focusing on that!

And sure my first reaction had been “probably not clean” but shortly after “who cares, great result. Hope she can repeat it”. and let’s not start another discussion on people are forced to cheat and we need to protect them etc. if a grown up person (let’s assume she did cheat and I’m not saying she did) who doesnt really need that to support her family decides to cheat, so it be. It doesn’t cost me anything. It doesn’t do any harm to myself or others that I know. And this thread isn’t about “should certain substances be banned to protect others”. This one is about “wow what a great result”. So let’s celebrate the great result.

(btw thanks for the motivation and confirmation. Good to know that 2:28 is nowadays only good club runner standard. Don’t know many at my age who can run that but good to know as I consider myself above average. Means I should get there easily 😁)

MrMacPhisto · 25-12-2022 9:22am

I could steal my neighbours Christmas presents and give them to my kids and family. That would be a great result for me and my family if I could live with that kind of behaviour. I doubt anybody in my community would be celebrating my performance or personal win.

Ceepo · 25-12-2022 10:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120032552#Comment_120032552

Of course it really doesn't matter to anyone one of us if someone cheats as it doesn't have any impact on our daily lives. But as sport fans there should be an expectation to actually believe in what we're watching

We should also think about the younger generation of athletes that are coming through that might have an expectation to make it to the top in their respective events. I believe future generations need to at the very least believe they can achieve qualification standards for major championships. If they are athletes using peds to achieve these standards and times how are these times going to be achievable, In fact we may have already past this point just looking at the recently announced 2024 automatic qualifying standards. 1,500m 3.33, that is the national record and only 2 Irish athletes have ran this time. 5000m 13.05 (13.03 NR) again only 2 athletes have ran this time, 10000m 27.00. Is 39 seconds faster than Irish record. (I know there is also the ranking system)

I should have said 2.28 is probably a bit better than average for a senior. Of course it's above average for a master. And as I've know idea of your ability or age I can't really comment where you lie on that spectrum I'll take your word that you're above average.

Happy christmas 😂

babacool · 25-12-2022 1:17pm

I’m M2 😁 and marathon PB of 2:39 pre carbon shoes 😁.

either way, with regards to “actually believe in what we watch” it’s like I said. If our expectation is to see clean athletes then sure we need to question anything. If our expectation is to see a good race, then I personally don’t care if clean or not. I only start caring if it’s no longer a race but dominant performance (Armstrong in cycling, certain athletes in biathlon, Mercedes in F1 and so on) due to having an advantage others can’t catch up to.

future generations: let’s face it, there have been times when people said “those records from the 80s can’t be broken as achieved by not clean athletes” and guess what. Not many of those are still standing. So the future is there.

i take your point with regards to qualification times though. Bonkers that’s all I’m saying.

But that has nothing to do with her 2:21 performance (clean or not). So again, let’s celebrate her run and don’t go out questioning if achieved clean or not.

same time I truly believe if doping is no longer a forbidden fruit, times will slow down again and the avg runner will have a chance qualifying for the games again. If doping is allowed but rejected by the public, marketing and sponsorships will drop. Less prize money means less benefits from “cheating” means less will do so. And those who do will eventually stop too as it’s no longer needed to stay at the top. And boom (it will take a few years) the system is clean and we no longer question results. 🙂

happy father (Christmas) day! 🎅

Ceepo · 25-12-2022 3:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120033156#Comment_120033156

M2 now? Is the 2.39 recently or is pre carbon meaning a few years ago.? 2.39 is handy club run time for a senior runner.

But we don't need to have peds to have good races. Some of the worse races are time trial record attempts. Is it to much to expect good race and athletes to be clean.

Regards records, yes there are still some records standing for 80/90s Irish 1500m for one, and for sure the most of them were broken over the year's, we have various reasons for that though including better track surfaces nutrition and especially shoes, blwe also need to take into account the some of the records were broken due to peds as well.

As a said her 2.21 is a fantastic performance and it's just a pity AI didn't get behind her a few years ago. (no surprise there) of course we can celebrate it, but that doesn't mean we can't question it.

I don't agree with your last point. I think that horse has well and truly bolted.

Murph_D · 25-12-2022 8:06pm

Good luck to you, babacool. You have an excellent club runner marathon time, and if you can’t see why someone cheating their way to a similar or better or even inferior performance is a lesser achievement than your own effort, and less deserving of your attention even if achieved in a very exciting (but obviously tainted) manner, then I think you don’t properly appreciate the value of your own presumably honest efforts, and those of other honest people.

Do you do your LRs with @walshb ?😉

babacool · 25-12-2022 9:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120033637#Comment_120033637

I train on my own. Not a big group runner.
no clue who that is 😁 real name would be needed to see if I know him/her
no clue if I was clean or not during my PB in 2019. Not a single clue what fruits are forbidden. All I know elite athletes have to be careful and check everything 10 times just to make sure nothing is in any good, medicine etc. I didn’t do that. I ate what I wanted. I took medicine when sick. So who knows, I might not have been clean that day (all I know is I could have gone faster if I had gotten the nutrition right on the day 😁. Dehydration cost me roughly 2-3min at the end).
I just decided to not worry if the runner next to me is clean or not. It’s a better lifestyle (for me). Someone running faster/slower clean/not clean won’t make me faster. Won’t win me any races. Won’t win me any awards. So why would I worry about that? I simply appreciate a great race and great performance. And if I’m beaten, so it be. Sure I might think to myself “I wonder what forbidden fruit he/she had” but that’s where I stop. I’m not going around questioning if he/she was clean. Which again brings us back to this thread. A great performance. A great time. Let’s celebrate it and not focus on “oh she might have not been clean”.

i fully understand where you guys come from though and I appreciate your reasoning. im just not like this. And yea, that discussion will be one for eternity as there is no right or wrong. No left or right. There is just opinion against opinion. Either side can find reasons to support their opinion and either side can find reason to counter the other opinion. And I truly hope it will never change.

for me, I’ve been on the “cheating should be banned side” when I was mid 20s and it didn’t get me anywhere except stopped enjoy watching sport as you constantly wonder if tomorrows news will have some big reveals. Now I’m on the “let them do what they want. They are old enough” side (let’s not try find an argument by “but what about those who can’t decide for themselves” please. That’s a different topic and won’t change regardless if you allow or disallow cheating). It won’t impact me. I just focus on myself and enjoy watching sport again (unless it’s boring due to dominance). And I will NOT try to win over others. Each to him/herself as again, life would be boring if we all agree on the same thing.

to summarise: life is great. Life is short. Enjoy it while it lasts. Don’t worry about tomorrow as you can neither influence the future nor the past. Focus on the present and you should be busy enough. 🙂 so well done sinead. Love to see the Australian flag showing up on leaderboards with a great time! I hope it will create a massive running boom in down under!

Murph_D · 25-12-2022 11:11pm

You’re a gas man with the ‘I don’t know if I was clean’ comment.

babacool · 26-12-2022 2:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120033952#Comment_120033952

I’m just honest 😁. Wasn’t tested and didn’t look what’s forbidden and what not. Didn’t check which medics an athlete can take and which not (I remember being sick a few weeks prior to the marathon). And let’s be honest, who (unless you are an elite athlete to be expected to be tested) of us knows that really? We all think we are clean but can we really say that? Can we be 100% certain? I doubt that! Maybe that steak from this Argentian cow wasn’t clean. Maybe the toothpaste was spiked. Maybe the cough medicine had some forbidden substance. Maybe the nose spray purchased in Russia 3 weeks before the race wasn’t nose spray (my russian isn’t good enough to read all the ingredients 😁).

so many things to be considered to be able to truly say “I’m clean”. Hence, let’s celebrate and don’t question her performance, at least not in a thread that was started with celebration in mind.

Lazare · 26-12-2022 7:32pm

Whether you're 'clean' or not comes down to intent.

muppetry · 06-03-2023 7:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975044#Comment_119975044

This guy is comparing retired masters runners to a current active elite athlete who has less than 10 years of running in her legs. His arguments don't stand up.

Also calling someone an "inexorably calcifying fossil" is really out of order and speaks volumes for the mindset of this author.

Sinead Diver Runs 2:21:34 In Valencia At 45 Years Old!! Becomes The Fastest Irish Woman In History

Comments