The lets make alooo(o)f regret it in his first week Munster v Leinster Build up Thread

All_in_Flynn · 26-12-2022 11:34pm

High intensity game. Enjoyable. You can see green shoots in Munster's play. They are still lacking in a couple of areas and I think there are 1 or 2 players who are no longer at the level required.

If you didn't know why Ireland/Leinster are investing a lot of time into McCarthy well you should now. He's a physically imposing lock who has good hands and quick. He still has plenty of wrinkles but he has a massive ceiling. Osbourne looks a prospect too.

Ringrose is playing at a super high level at the moment. Is there a centre in world rugby playing as well?

letowski · 27-12-2022 12:00am

Be interesting to see who Farrell will pick between Deegan and Coombes. Deegan played well but I taught Coombes edged the dual overall. Deegan is more mobile, but Coombes is a more powerful carrier in the tight. From a Munster point of view, Coombes has put together some excellent performances these past few weeks.

Larbre34 · 27-12-2022 12:03am

Why would he necessarily pick either at the moment?

KaneToad · 27-12-2022 12:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120036832#Comment_120036832

Agreed. Don't think either would get into an Ireland 23, at the minute.

letowski · 27-12-2022 12:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120036832#Comment_120036832

I mean the 37 man Irish Squad for the 6N. Agreed, they wouldn't make the matchday 23.

Rockbeast2 · 27-12-2022 12:20am

Deegan would have a chance to make squad if Doris can't make it. But Coombes stands a better chance if Doris going. Offers something different.

Although, TBH, I'd send either ahead of Conan...

stephen_n · 27-12-2022 12:39am

Munster have definitely turned a corner. They will be kicking themselves for that sin bin period. Though Leinster just seemed to shift a couple of gears at that point. That’s the most evenly matched Derby game with Munster in a long time.

How Casey didn’t start I don’t know. Between snipping and quick passes out beyond the 15, he was keeping Leinster guessing in defence. Munster attacked so much better with him on. For the most part Munsters defence was excellent too. Thought it went awol in that 10 minutes. Plenty of positives in that game for Munster to build on. Yet it also shows them how far they have to go.

razorblunt · 27-12-2022 12:47am

Why would Jack Conan get picked ahead of them on current form?

Rockbeast2 · 27-12-2022 12:51am

"Munster have definitely turned a corner"

For sure...

BUT they still look unsure when they go past 12 through the hands. It's bizarre. Is that why Murray kicks it? The only way he thinks the wingers might get their hands on the ball?

* Great to see that little prick-ly bollix, Casey, ordering and organizing pods around him. I'd have him on my team any day.

Dubinusa · 27-12-2022 1:34am

Frisch looks like Mr Bean mates with Paul Giamatti.

almostover · 27-12-2022 1:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120036829#Comment_120036829

Lost his form at a bad time but Coombes has been really good since the autumn Internationals. Deegan is more athletic but Coombes is peerless in the tight. Deegan, Conan and Doris are very similar type players with the latter two being better than the former, there is no other back row in Ireland capable of what Coombes can do. He's a different style of player.

Dave_The_Sheep · 27-12-2022 3:55am

I can't remember the minute it happened, but just before the Campbell try, there was a two-three man tackle on someone but the third man in was Keenan who made all the difference in the tackle, pushed them back. Two point intervention by Keenan, tackle is effective and Munster score in the corner instead of further in. Resulting conversion missed. Which turned out to be cruial in the end.

Dubinusa · 27-12-2022 4:23am

Thought it was a good match. Terrible reffing. Munster, imo, are improving.

For Munster, Daly played very well as did Coombes. I thought Carberry did ok. Typical game from him. John Ryan is some man for a scrum! Casey should pick up more starts and should be ahead of Murray. He's just a different proposition. Great delivery, great passing and a sniping threat. Beirne wasn't at the races. Kleyn was ok. But he's always ok.

For Leinster, Ruddock was great. He's just so good! Penny too! I thought Deegan was good. Some mistakes but, good. Larmour put in a serious shift. Very willing, hitting rucks and showing up in the line. Luke improved our play and is vastly better than Nick.

Good game to watch.

aloooof · 27-12-2022 8:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120036351#Comment_120036351

Firmly put back in their place.

... as not-favourites presumably?? ;)

Hippo · 27-12-2022 9:15am

As a Leinster fan I was baffled but delighted that Murray and Carbery started at 9 and 10. This simply has to change - Casey and Crowley are miles ahead. With the limited attacking gameplan Munster are employing (although I know it's undergoing change) they need every trick those guys are capable of. Carbery consistently shovelling the ball out to 12 is never going to threaten anyone.

A special mention for Busby, that was a remarkably clueless performance even by the 'uneven' standards of the URC.

OldRio · 27-12-2022 9:26am

Carbery being picked for Ireland terrifies me. He's just not good enough.

The match itself was a fantastic advertisement for the URC. Great entertainment.

scrubs33 · 27-12-2022 9:28am

Picked up a ticket late so headed in to this one. Munster sideways play followed by the inevitable box kick was very frustrating to watch until Casey came on. Munster lack that X factor to break down an elite defence which Leinster presented last night: from what I could see Lowe and Ringrose did most of the organising. What I wouldn’t give for a Doug Howlett type figure to do something similar and give opposition defences something new to think about. Munster have the potential to reach the final stages of competitions but won’t have silverware unfortunately. Leinster should win the URC and won’t be far away from the champions cup as well.

aloooof · 27-12-2022 9:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037181#Comment_120037181

As a Leinster fan I was baffled but delighted that Murray and Carbery started at 9 and 10. This simply has to change - Casey and Crowley are miles ahead.

Carbery deserved his start after his performances over the last number of weeks, but unfortunately didn’t produce similar yesterday. (I think he got injured early tbh).

With the limited attacking gameplan Munster are employing (although I know it's undergoing change).

How much or Munster you see this season out of interest? It doesn’t seem at all limited to me (in fact I’d say the opposite, that it’s pretty expansive). Leinster just happen to have an elite defence.

Burkie1203 · 27-12-2022 9:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037219#Comment_120037219

https://twitter.com/CianTracey1/status/1607672977952219136?t=gKc9okBaD2QKF9-syJJcwQ&s=19

I think they are trying to evolve but this is just piss poor play, shovelling the ball along aimlessly. There's is still way too much of this stuff Happening

With regard to Carbery, i think he telegraph's his intentions too much and good defenders like Ringrose eat up space out wide on the recipient. I think he has regressed a lot, injuries haven't helped but the coaching at munster since 2018 has played its part too.

Hippo · 27-12-2022 10:05am

I've seen enough to note that while there has been an attempt to play more expansively it hasn't been executed too well and there's still a tendency to bosh away predictably in the red zone. Campbell's try was a result of going wide, the difficulty seems to be getting the ball out there with any pace.

I don't think Carbery is the 10 to ignite the backline the way they want to. He's a talented guy but, and I know it's been said over and over again, he's a 15 not a 10. His talents are just not suited to the position especially at the higher levels. He was injured last night after Baird's (borderline) hit early on but I think it's been obvious for ages that the team can't be built around him. For sure Leinster have an elite defence but for a fully-loaded Munster with a capacity crowd cheering them on to be so ineffective against a Leinster 2nds is surely a matter of concern. At no point last night was I seriously worried that Munster would win.

sydthebeat · 27-12-2022 10:23am

Ireland are in a bad way if Munster, Connacht and Ulster can't produce (at senior level) 10s good enough to play for Ireland.

Over the last few weeks and months we've had carbery, Carty and burns all decried by their own fans as "not good enough".

What do we do about this?

Podge_irl · 27-12-2022 10:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037294#Comment_120037294

They're not good enough and Ireland are in a bad way.

We have to hope there is better coming through...

Clegg · 27-12-2022 10:46am

Leinster's second tap and go try is very ugly viewing from a Munster perspective. Scannell and Kilcoyne simply lost the collision.

In not saying anything that's new to Munster fans, but until they develop/recruit front 5 forwards that can be physically dominant, they'll always struggle to win big games.

The emergence of Edwin Edogbo will help in that regard. He's a massive unit and seems to have great technique at the breakdown. If Salonoa can develop his skills further he should be a good option as well. He's already a good impact option from the bench.

lawrencesummers · 27-12-2022 10:50am

The long and the short of it is that Munster are getting closer to the level Leinster play at, munster are improving and are as close to Leinster as they have been in years.

BUT its still closer to a Leinster team missing 6 or so starting players and its closer to a leinster team who with 14 men were able to increase their intensity and score 14 points.

Its not a 50/50 derby yet by any means but its getting closer to it.

Former Former Former · 27-12-2022 10:53am

Carbery was grand last night, not great but didn't have a stinker. The question is still, who do you replace him with? Crowley didn't make much of a case for himself either.

Conversely, the impact Casey made was immediate and noticeable, such a change in tempo.

I see people above saying Cian Healy is done. He put in a 60 minute shift at tighthead against a first choice Munster pack and didn't look out of place. Tough crowd.

Unfortunately Earls didn't quite get to the pace of the game, hopefully he just needs more gametime but this could be it.

Otherwise Ringrose continues to dazzle, think he should have been MOTM and Joe McCarthy is building nicely apart from his customary brainless penalty. Lowe was quiet but Keenan and Larmour were excellent.

I thought Shane Daly had a really tidy game too.

Referee was fine, got the big calls right, but I thought he was pretty lax on contact around the ruck and maul. Nothing heinous but a couple of times, I thought Leinster would get pinged and didn't, Munster too.

aloooof · 27-12-2022 11:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037294#Comment_120037294

Ireland are in a bad way if Munster, Connacht and Ulster can't produce (at senior level) 10s good enough to play for Ireland.

You can add Leinster to that too tbh. Post-Sexton, who’s a generational talent, we’re in a bit of bother.

aloooof · 27-12-2022 11:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037242#Comment_120037242

To be fair, that's a brilliant read and hit by McCarthy as much as anything. And I like Niall Scannell, but he's never going to be Dan Sheehan. (I think Barron has come on a fair bit tho, he's better in the loose than Scannell, but still has the odd lineout misfire).

But ultimately, would you say Munster have looked better under Prendergast than Larkham? They absolutely have, imo. The new coaches deserve a bit of time, they've only had half a season.

27-12-2022 11:39am

Do we need to talk about Earls? Have to say I thought he was very poor. Didn't really add anything to the Munster attack, killed a few moves in midfield, flapped badly under one or two high balls, will he make the Munster XV anymore even?

aloooof · 27-12-2022 11:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037264#Comment_120037264

I've seen enough to note that while there has been an attempt to play more expansively it hasn't been executed too well

I disagree tbh. We started the season really poorly, but from about the Ulster game onwards, I think there's been pretty clear indications of things going in the right direction, and the execution improving. (The last 60 minutes or so of the Edinburgh game is the best out attack has looked in a couple of years tbh).

and there's still a tendency to bosh away predictably in the red zone.

I also think there's been an improvement on this this season too (and commented as much on one of our previous matches).

There's still a way to go, but I don't know a Munster fan who isn't happy with the progress and indication things are going in the right direction. The coaching team have been in place half a season. Crowley has his second ever start from 12 last night. They deserve a bit of time.

Akrasia · 27-12-2022 11:41am

There is a lot of IRFU interference going on in Munsters selections this year. Murray clearly does not fit in with Rowntrees game plan and there was an immediate improvement when Casey came on at the stroke of 50 on the match clock.

Similarly I'd suggest GR is being pressured to play Carbery ahead of Crowley to the point where GR is playing Crowley out of position just to get him on the pitch

Being a head coach on a 1 year contract is a bad place to be when you're being bossed around by the guy who decides whether you get to stay next season

aloooof · 27-12-2022 11:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037461#Comment_120037461

It's only his 2nd game back from injury to be fair, but he was poor alright. I do think we've seen the odd atypical lapse from him tho in the last 12 months too.

He's 35, but I'm still hopeful he has plenty to add to Munster. I'm obviously biased, but I'd love to see him hit the 100 caps for Ireland too.

aloooof · 27-12-2022 11:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037334#Comment_120037334

Leinster's second tap and go try is very ugly viewing from a Munster perspective. Scannell and Kilcoyne simply lost the collision.

It's a good example of exactly what I didn't think the front-row looked very competitive tbh.

Burkie1203 · 27-12-2022 11:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037438#Comment_120037438

The read is brilliant. But when the 15 goes to the ruck the rest of the players are all static. I think BOD made the point after the Aviva game about static attackers are a defenders dream.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 27-12-2022 11:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037481#Comment_120037481

You had better hope that the IRFU announce another couple of world cup warm ups.

He might sneak the century as a steady hand in the first two warm up games which are mainly outside chances.

Otherwise he would need an injury crisis or a real improvement to get the century.

Former Former Former · 27-12-2022 11:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037469#Comment_120037469

There isn't really any reason why IRFU would force a provincial selector to pick one Irish guy ahead of another Irish guy. If Crowley and Casey really are the better players, then it's in IRFU's interest to find that out ASAP just as much as Munster.

Rightly or wrongly, Munster are picking these guys because they think they're the best in their position

aloooof · 27-12-2022 12:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037513#Comment_120037513

Ya, but if your 15 is passing the ball at the ruck, I'd say it's likely something else has gone wrong in phases before that tbh.

And in any case, for the Aviva game, Munster were missing what I think is technically described as a "sh*t load" of players. And the main improvements we've seen have come after that game.

But again, would you say Munster have looked better in half a season under Prendergast than they did under Larkham?

stephen_n · 27-12-2022 12:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037527#Comment_120037527

You can definitely see massive improvements in Munsters attacking intent. The structures are starting to form, with multiple options available. The execution and decision making is not there yet though.

However I pretty much guarantee if Frisch had made a break like that last year, the play would have floundered but instead Munster immediately switched on and organized their attack to exploit the weakness. It may have ended with pick and goes but the transition to get there was way good. So they are also displaying that they can play heads up.

Casey is pivotal to it though, Murray just isn’t built to play that way. The tempo required to stretch defenses consistently just doesn’t suit him.

Larbre34 · 27-12-2022 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037187#Comment_120037187

This is correct.

He simply has not returned to the level he was once at, since his long injury layoff.

It does then leave Ireland with a World class player 10 months from retirement and about 6 x outhalves with quite serious question marks over at least one major aspect of their game.

aloooof · 27-12-2022 1:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037603#Comment_120037603

Patterson as well has been a live wire in his appearances.

He was named on the bench for the Toulouse game even tho Murray had been named as training, but that now seems like it was managing Murray’s return from injury.

Patterson definitely suits the style better too tho.

J Mysterio · 27-12-2022 1:42pm

What's the story with Ben Healey? Why isn't he in the mix? Seems a better player than Carbery, and more established than Crowley?

Former Former Former · 27-12-2022 1:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037774#Comment_120037774

He's neither of those things tbh.

J Mysterio · 27-12-2022 1:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037794#Comment_120037794

Crowley - 24 apps for Munster, 58pts.

Healy - 46 apps for Munster, 265pts.

Former Former Former · 27-12-2022 1:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037811#Comment_120037811

Unfortunately for Healy, those stats were accumulated under the old management team and entirely due to Carbery’s absences. He wasn't ever really "established".

So to answer your question, he's not in the mix because the new coaches think Crowley is better.

almostover · 27-12-2022 2:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037757#Comment_120037757

It's a shame to see how much Carbery has regressed. The injuries have certainly taken their toll, mostly on his confidence. Saw him step away from tackling Rhys Ruddock last night, subconsciously his injury profile must be affecting him.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 27-12-2022 2:04pm

Carberry is being given a benefit of the doubt based on past performances imo.

Crowley is the young gun with buckets of potential that is outplaying's healy's best.

Ben Healy is also a young guy with a lot of potential but it's quiet clear he has fallen behind Crowley.

I'm suspecting Healy may move on at the end of the season. He wanted a one year contract last year and thats what he got. His stock hasn't gone up (due to the emergence of Crowley).

Akrasia · 27-12-2022 2:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037519#Comment_120037519

Murray is not a bad player, he's still one of the best scrum halves in Ireland. He is a bad fit for the Munster game-plan and needs a dominant pack to play his game which Ireland do have, but Munster do not.

The IRFU renewed his central contract until 2024 (😕) and they need him to be available for the 6 nations, and that means he needs minutes under his belt.

99% of Munster fans want Casey to be starting these big games with Murray or Patterson used as injury cover on the bench.

phily2002 · 27-12-2022 2:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037481#Comment_120037481

Yeah similar to Murray, I don't think he should be in the Ireland squad but would hate to see him retire at 98 caps(was happy to see Murray get the ton). Farrell seems like the type of guy who'll get him over(Seems to really value these achievements) . Italy game and maybe a Summer match. Think his days in the big matches in green are over though

Akrasia · 27-12-2022 2:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037823#Comment_120037823

He got very hard at the beginning of the game and that seemed to have hurt him both physically and mentally.

Burkie1203 · 27-12-2022 2:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037334#Comment_120037334

Was it luke mcgrath who ran through a front rower in the aviva too.

almostover · 27-12-2022 2:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037841#Comment_120037841

Thems the breaks though. It's on every back row's radar to nail the opposition's no.10 whenever the chance presents itself. Have to be able to take the odd borderline late hit at the highest level. Crowley seems more robust in that regard.

The lets make alooo(o)f regret it in his first week Munster v Leinster Build up Thread

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