Choosing more ethical meat.

AyeGer · 26-12-2022 11:00pm #1

I'm not sure where to start with this, i have started eating more fruit and veg and less meat over the past couple of years. I am not comfortable with eating meat whre the animal has had a miserable life in a factory or some other awful place.

I would prefer to eat meat that has had the chance to live a decent enough life up to the point of slaughter, if there is such a thing. Am i looking for free range or organic? Is there any particular certification that says the animal was not factory farmed?

igCorcaigh · 26-12-2022 11:44pm

For pork, check out the Irish Pig Society, see link below.

Free range chicken is widely sold in supermarkets. Always buy organic eggs, they are not much more expensive.

There is still no guarantee IMHO. And most of what you get in fast food joints/supermarkets/restaurants will place cost over ethics I think.

I don't know of any certification that can provide you with the assurance you are looking for, but hopefully more knowledgeable posters can step in.

https://irishpigsociety.com/

the beer revolu · 26-12-2022 11:50pm

Yes, definitely pork and chicken are the ones to watch out for - some unlikeable practices going on with them.

I (maybe naively) feel that beef and lamb production in Ireland is reasonably ethical.

With pork, the upside is that free range pork tastes about 10 times better than indoor reared pork.

igCorcaigh · 26-12-2022 11:56pm

Yes, I have heard the same about practices in Ireland regarding pork and chicken.

But even free range beef (Lidl minced beef for example) does taste much better, so maybe go by that guide as an indication of how well the animal is treated. Same with pork based charcuterie (check out On The Wild Side Kerry chorizo).

A lot depends on your local suppliers, so search around.

And treat meat as a luxury; you will be paying much more € for it.

27-12-2022 12:13am

*Mod Note*

This post was below the standard considered acceptable in this forum. If you want to have a serious debate on this issue, the food forum is not the place for it.

Mystery Egg

the_amazing_raisin · 27-12-2022 12:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058277067/choosing-more-ethical-meat

There are EU laws which require minimum standards of animal welfare including a life free from cruelty, that they not suffer unnecessary harm, they're allowed to behave as they would in the wild and rules around transportation

So avoiding meats from outside the EU is a good start, but admittedly most of the typical meats in shops are produced in Ireland anyway

There isn't really anything you can do to be sure, even buying free range there's been stories of farmers who give chickens a very short amount of time outside

Farming is a business and motivated by profit, like any other industry. And in general society wants food to be cheap, so there's a lot of pressure on farmers to produce meat as economically as possible

As others have said, beef and lamb may be easier to find ethical standards. Pork and chicken are trickier, when's the last time you say pigs in a field?

Perhaps one approach would be to speak to some butchers. They might have deals with some particular farms and would know which ones are treating animals better than others

27-12-2022 1:04am

Have you (OP) considered beginning a Vegetarian diet - ?

The gradual non-eating of animals is easy enough these days with the amount of alternatives available.

Even one day a week to being with is a start

magicbastarder · 27-12-2022 1:22am

my wife is vegetarian, so as a result my diet is largely veggie too. but it raises some interesting, and sometimes conflicting, quandaries.

if animal welfare is your primary concern, by my reckoning beef is a safe option. cattle in ireland (with caveats) live decent enough lives compared to other farm animals. you'd get a couple of hundred kg of beef from one cow, so you'd get a few years of eating for one person, for a single animal life.

compare that with chicken, say; much less damaging environmentally, but factory farmed chickens have tougher lives than cattle in general. you'd get maybe a week of eating from a chicken (assuming meat every day); from what i can see, 1kg of meat from a chicken would be normal.

in short, you'd get the same amount of meat from about 200 chickens as you would from one cow; and cows have better lives than factory farmed chickens in ireland, so from an animal welfare point of view, beef is the obvious option. but from an environmental point of view (GHG emissions, etc.) chicken is the better choice.

AyeGer · 27-12-2022 1:52am

Thanks guys for the replies, much appreciated. Some very good suggestions there. I'm definitely trying to eat less and less meat and thankfully i enjoy eating more fruit, veg and nuts. Much healthier too.

I've been asking a few people recently about this and like myself they aren't very knowledgeable about animal welfare or other possible benefits of free range food. Our beef has a very good name internationally. Drive around any part of Ireland and cows and sheep are visible in the fields.

Graces7 · 27-12-2022 10:57am

Like others here I just eat less and less meat. And I don;t miss it at all. My happiest years were when I had hens for eggs and a goat for milk and cheese. Poppy she was called. my goat! I used to take her on walks to the shore where I lived then.

Raising twin orphan lambs finished me for that meat.

magicbastarder · 27-12-2022 11:13am

We have one of the most degraded natural landscapes in the entire world, largely down to grazing livestock. beef is the most environmentally damaging meat you can eat anyway, regardless of animal welfare issues, so i've pretty much cut it out from my diet.

wild shot irish venison would be the best meat from an animal welfare and environmental point of view, if you can get it!

c.p.w.g.w · 27-12-2022 11:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037277#Comment_120037277

But beef is the most nutritional dense meat we can get

magicbastarder · 27-12-2022 11:49am

it'd want to be, it takes far more to produce it. it's a very inefficient way of producing food.

893bet · 27-12-2022 12:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037277#Comment_120037277

we have a degraded landscape?

let the tourist board know so they can stop selling Ireland on that point.

Irish beef is probably one of the most ethical meats worldwide due to the grass fed nature.

magicbastarder · 27-12-2022 12:17pm

We have one of the most degraded landscapes in the world; based on a common metric of how much of our landscape is in an original natural state.

Dial Hard · 27-12-2022 12:24pm

Wild game is about the most ethical meat you can eat but obviously the season is limited. You could always buy a chest freezer and stock up.

I've given up pork because the appalling way pigs are reared in Ireland. They're incredibly intelligent, social animals and we treat them like battery chickens. If I ever found myself with an unassailable craving for it, I'd go free range - Andarl Farm or similar - but I don't actually miss it at all, really.

magicbastarder · 27-12-2022 12:42pm

Venison is in season at the moment - I got a decent chunk of haunch in Fallon and Byrne for a reasonable price a few days ago.

Dial Hard · 27-12-2022 12:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037475#Comment_120037475

I know, I fill my freezer every year! Also available in Aldi and Lidl.

magicbastarder · 27-12-2022 12:51pm

Where do Aldi and Lidl source it? I neglected to ask in Fallon and Byrne.

893bet · 27-12-2022 12:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037409#Comment_120037409

The common metric?

Can you provide a link of some sort demonstrating this common metric and showing Ireland as one of the top of the pile?

Alun · 27-12-2022 12:53pm

From memory, the venison in Aldi and Lidl is imported from New Zealand where they farm red deer extensively.

Dial Hard · 27-12-2022 12:54pm

All the venison I've seen in any of the supermarkets comes from Wild Irish Game in Glenmalure.

Alun · 27-12-2022 1:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037504#Comment_120037504

I see venison from there in Supervalu regularly.

magicbastarder · 27-12-2022 1:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037498#Comment_120037498

More detail in this pdf:

https://t.co/CCLcVzJyLW

Dial Hard · 27-12-2022 1:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037500#Comment_120037500

Possibly some of the frozen specials but the fresh, seasonal stuff is always Irish and from Wild Irish Game.

rainagain · 27-12-2022 4:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120036799#Comment_120036799

Agree with talking to butchers, not many producers but getting to know them is worth the effort.

https://higginsbutchers.ie/ is a good example - speaking to the guys in there a few months ago about pork. The said the pigs go to a smaller abattoir that's well run a few days before slaughter, so they get used to the new place and are less stressed - better for the last few days of their life, and better tasting meat too.

There's product like https://olivercarty.ie/product_tag/free-range/ but no details on who farms the pigs.

Also https://pigsonthegreen.wordpress.com/ and https://thevillagebutcher.ie/product-category/pork/crowe-farm-outdoor-reared-pork/

Black Sheep · 28-12-2022 2:02am

Some good suggestions / thoughts in this thread already.

For pork I would recommend Andarl Farm...

Velvet Pork | Buy Pork Online Ireland | Andarl Farm – Andarl Farm Ltd

For beef I would second the recommendation of Higgins Butchers but there are other direct to consumer farm shop type operations that are good, I've used Donabate Dexter, FXB and Whelan's Butchers. I agree with the posters who said that Irish cows probably have a decent life compared to chickens and pigs however, you probably can't go that far wrong.

magicbastarder · 28-12-2022 11:04am

in general (not just animal welfare); i remember reading that the three main things you can do at home to reduce the environmental footprint of your diet, was to 1) reduce your meat consumption; 2) waste less food and 3) use your oven less.

Black Sheep · 28-12-2022 1:56pm

I feel reasonably strongly about animal welfare - pain, poor living conditions etc - and have done since I read Peter Singer in college (Practical Ethics, Animal Liberation).

I've been vegetarian in the past, and always "for the animals", if you like. That slid more into trying to spend my money more ethically and eat meat more mindfully I guess, although that word has become overused of late.

I accept for many people eating less meat or higher welfare meat is about climate but actually even if the climate was grand there would still be a good moral argument about animal treatment in the food industry. I think that's forgotten sometimes.

On climate I think from an individual point of view probably car usage, flying etc are more where my decisions are climate related than what goes on in my kitchen.

iniscealtra · 28-12-2022 3:04pm

@Black Sheep I’m in the same boat really. Don’t fly anymore. The boat is great. I do eat meat. OH hunts, so have vension quite a bit as well as other meat from the supermarket.

Vension is a great option, after that lamb and beef. Free range chicken but free range pork is really hard to find in Ireland.

Sure any farmed food is coming from a landscape managed by humans and therefore in an non natural state. @magicbastarder As does Irish vension

AyeGer · 29-12-2022 1:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120040540#Comment_120040540

That's the angle i'm coming from, its more about the welfare of the animals that is making me want to change. And if its better for the environment that that is great too. In Europe we are probably better than some other parts of the world thankfully but still have a bit to go.

the_amazing_raisin · 30-12-2022 8:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120040540#Comment_120040540

Yeah I kinda agree with you. I'd be reducing meat consumption (if I can get the missus onboard) mostly for environmental and health reasons

But it would be nice if I could buy meat knowing that the animal hasn't spent it's life in abject misery

I understand the meat industry is very competitive, but I don't think that's fair justification for some of the treatment you see, especially for chickens. I think a lot of farmers would prefer to treat animals better if they could still turn a profit

I'd like to see more done at the EU level to improve animal welfare. If they did it for the whole bloc then it would effectively some of the intensive farming practices across Europe

Gloomtastic! · 30-12-2022 8:26pm

I keep thinking that rabbit could be farmed fairly ethically and not too intensively. Am I wrong?

Alun · 30-12-2022 8:36pm

The Romans used to farm them, that's how they ended up in Britain and presumably Ireland. There's evidence that people farmed them quite extensively after the Romans left in the form of stone built warrens and houses where the warreners lived on Dartmoor in SW England.

magicbastarder · 30-12-2022 9:59pm

hedgehogs are probably not 'native' to ireland, i think the theory is the normans introduced them as a food source.

Gloomtastic! · 30-12-2022 11:19pm

You also have pigeon lofts in the sides of old buildings for a mid-winter meat fest. They’d be pretty free range.

El Tarangu · 31-12-2022 1:43am

Pork is definitely the worst - a common farming practice is to cut pigs' tails off, as they find the conditions of their captivity so stressful that they bite and tear one anothers' tails off otherwise.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037374#Comment_120037374

I am curious ,if anyone knows, what proportion of a typical Irish cow's diet is grass, in the end - I presume that in winter their grass diet would be supplemented with imported feed (typically shipped from halfway around the world, possibly grown on some cleared rainforest).

31-12-2022 4:48am

‘Ireland imports around 80 percent of its animal feed, food and beverage needs.’

https://www.export.gov/apex/article2?id=Ireland-Agricultural-Sectors

Gloomtastic! · 31-12-2022 8:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048535#Comment_120048535

Farmers cut grass during the summer and preserve it by drying it and making hay or adding molasses and making sillage. They then feed them to their livestock during the winter months.

Black Sheep · 31-12-2022 9:47am

Speaking of ethical meats, I never had wallabie from Lambay Island until last year.

They were introduced to the island a few decades ago and for population control purposes they have to be reduced every now and again.

They're on the menu at Liath in Blackrock.

A bit like rabbit / deer.

I don't know what the amount of meat acquired is, could explain why its not anywhere else as far as I know.

https://www.thejournal.ie/wallabies-lambay-island-2-3516673-Jul2017/

I think in the coming decades the animal welfare issue will indirectly be impacted by vastly rising costs associated with climate change and policies related to that.

Meat and eggs are going to become much more expensive.

From an animal welfare perspective this isn't necessarily good as smaller producers and abattoirs are already struggling with costs and in some places they are already being subsidised.

I wouldn't like to see a scenario where only industrial operations can survive. I hope high welfare, high cost business models are still worth it.

I could be way off, guess we will see.

magicbastarder · 31-12-2022 10:29am

Isn't all meat production in Ireland subsidised? All meat farming is AFAIK.

31-12-2022 10:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048881#Comment_120048881

I think I remember it (agriculture) being similar to what it costs to keep the justice system afloat annually which is around €2 billion (from memory and could be outdated now).

I think most Irish people would also be surprised with how much meat we import to consume and how much we export to wealthier countries.

Gael23 · 31-12-2022 11:00am

They still suffer the same horrific death no matter how they are reared

Black Sheep · 31-12-2022 11:12am

Fair, I should have said 'subsidised to an even greater extent'.

Deub · 31-12-2022 11:35am

I understand the concept of not eating meat due to animal welfare and I think farming style from 60+ years ago was ok where one farm could raise few animals of everything (chicken, pigs, cows, sheep, etc) most of them had a better life but it is not cost effective now unless you can pay 3-4 times more.

What I don’t understand yet is why being vegetarian is better for the planet. By not eating meat, you need to eat specific vegetables/grains to find the minerals/vitamins you need. Most of them are not grown in Ireland. And like someone said above for animal feed, we have a lot vegetables coming from far away where they use a lot of fertilisers and clear forest to expand. I would think that eating meat grown in Ireland is less worse for the planet than importing these vegetables/grains.

31-12-2022 11:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049011#Comment_120049011

You should look in to how much meat and poultry Ireland actually import. It’s huge amounts. Most people would struggle to believe it.

People are eating imported meat daily and have no idea. The Irish public just presume they are always eating Irish produce. Not true at all.

Gloomtastic! · 31-12-2022 11:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049011#Comment_120049011

I always think of India when this argument is raised. They’re able to feed most of their population because the vast majority are vegetarian. Or am I wrong?

Deub · 31-12-2022 12:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049051#Comment_120049051

I agree on imported meat as it has maybe even more impact than vegetables coming from the same area (land cleared, transport, etc) and you have to add methane as well.

Deub · 31-12-2022 12:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049079#Comment_120049079

They are in second position worldwide for fertiliser consumption. If you search, you will see reports on how the land is degraded dut to excessive usage.

We can’t really know the impact (or not) on their life expectancy from a mostly meat free diet because of difference of healthcare, etc

I know that you can replace meat by other ingredients but if they can’t be produced in Ireland, what is the point? (and I am referring to the concept of not eating meat because it is better for the planet)

whomadewho · 31-12-2022 12:54pm

Wild venison. Aldi, lidl, and dunnes sell it. It is sold in streaks, roasts and sauages. It is as lean a meat you will find.

screamer · 31-12-2022 1:06pm

Chickens and pigs I think live pretty miserable lives in big commercial farms. Cattle though generally are out roaming around in herds, they do get out into sheds in winter mainly for their own welfare, some can be out wintered but most aren’t. I dunno, have you spent any time on a farm or do you know a farmer? That’s really the only way to really know if your view of ethical is borne out or not. We keep a small beef herd, on very unspoilt land, they are a bunch of ejits, live roaming the bogs eating all sorts of things, panned out in the sunshine in summer and in warm straw beds in winter (we don’t do slatted sheds). They are fed to the best, they get any care and attention needed, if they’re bought in as babies they are hand reared. We don’t finish them out to factory but I do know that that’s where they’ll end up, and to be honest, I’ve seen humans suffer longer more painful deaths than the cattle in slaughter houses. We get the local butcher to kill out one for us every year and I can tell you one thing, you won’t find meat like it in any supermarket. Each to their own, I don’t judge anyone, but wanted to give you another insight into it.

Choosing more ethical meat.

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