Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

No he is not.

Cameron called the referendum and Johnson campaigned for it and then had the power to write the oven ready withdrawal agreement. Corbyn was just crap (maybe willingly) at campaigning against it.

Corbyn was a Europhobe since the 1970s. He was neither willing nor able to credibly campaign against Brexit in the first place or the BS "Brexit means Brexit" from May or the "oven ready" Johnson lies.

A decent government had a duty to swing the vote.

This is all on the Tories. From the infighting, the holding of the ref, the question asked, and the hard brexit approach ever since.

100% at the feet of the Tories.

It's anecdotal I know but nobody I knew had their opinions changed by what any party said. Party lines were null and void for that referendum in England.

Corbyns two big support bases were the old school Labour who would have an anti EU element regardless of how good or bad the leadership were and the young socialists who were very pro EU in spite of Corbyns likely anti EU views.

Well me and you had very different experiences then because I knew nobody who was not we'll set in stone.

Cameron's "miscalculation" and hubris is ultimately to blame and the rest is just an attempt to distract from Tory fuk ups just like people trying to play "all sides" about the NHS over on the UK politics thread.

This is a bit rich , coming from someone who consistently defends Starmer for still not calling out Brexit.

The Tories were 99.% to blame for Brexit and for allowing the anti EU rhetoric to take hold in their party. The electorate were 0.9% to blame for believing the rhetoric instead of doing a little examination of the issues themselves. And Corbyn, who advocated remaining, is probably 0.1% at fault for maybe not being more forthright(along with other politicians , who all took the result for granted).

But it was a Conservatives project whose only real purpose was to try and unite the Conservative party and put the ERF to one side . It is absolutely fantasy to blame anyone else for the mess the UK ended up with

I remember seeing Corbyn on the Last Leg leading up to the Brexit referendum and honestly a damp lettuce leaf could have a better case for remaining. His came across as indifferent to the vote and to any consequences. His cause is more based in the domestic class system rather than anything beyond Britain, he'd be the shop steward on the lordship's factory floor fighting for the workers right to marrietta biscuits.

No i am being consistent. You're misquoting me, and yourself. i have said Corbyn could be criticised for not being more forthright in arguing for remain. But anytime anyone here has suggested that Starmer even mention the problems with Brexit, you have jumped to his defence suggesting that he should remain silent.

'Sovereignty' is such an intangible and nebulous concept, especially in the modern, interconnected world. What on earth difference does it make to someone living in a council flat whether some obscure regulation about hairdryers was drafted in either London or Brussels? The idea that they would vote to screw themselves over and impoverish themselves for good over the drafting of little known EU regulations is incredible when you think about it.

Pre-referendum, whether Corbyn’s Labour campaigned enough for Remain or not, and could have swung it the other way or not, is a pretty subjective debate.

The more objective fact of the matter is that the opposition then failed elementarily, and fundamentally, in its duty to the British public interest throughout the political management of the referendum outcome, e.g. over the Article 50 instrument vote, which is when Brexit actually switched from being a voidable political construct to a constitutional certainty.

Europhobe, europhile or indifferent as he may have been over the UK’s EU membership, post-referendum Corbyn’s Labour immediately engaged in the management of expectations from Red Wall voters (and those of other traditional Labour heartlands with strong Leave vote performance), a ‘strategy’ that is continuing to this day with Starmer’s borderline BNP-esque signalling over immigration and other themes.

’Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake’, as an opposition strategy, might wash for a few weeks or even months, but after 6+ years that have by now seen a generational level of socio-economic damage inflicted on the UK, I’m afraid it looks like conscience balm for useful idiots still in thrall to Labour.