Choosing more ethical meat.

magicbastarder · 31-12-2022 1:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049011#Comment_120049011

in general, it's fairly simple - growing a plant and feeding it to an animal vastly increases the system losses involved. taken on purely energy content; if 1000 calories goes into feeding an animal, only a small fraction of the calorific content will make it into the meat; you lose energy to the animal growing, moving, staying warm, etc., and to the bits of the animal you can't eat. but you could potentially feed those 1000 calories directly to a person.

in 2018, the average beef output per hectare per year in ireland was 455kg (https://www.icbf.com/?p=8469); i'm comparing apples with oranges a bit here, but a site in england suitable for growing hazelnuts can expect up to 4,000kg of hazelnuts per Ha, per annum (http://www.calu.bangor.ac.uk/Technical%20leaflets/050402Cobnutsandwalnuts.pdf)

so nearly 10 times the weight, and hazelnuts are approx 2.5x more energy dense per kg, so that good site in england can produce over 20 times as many calories from a Ha of land, than irish beef producers produce on average. i'm well aware that i'm picking a 'good' site in england, comparing it to the national average here, so a spectrum of the quality of the land, but the factor of greater than 20 in that comparison is interesting.

of course it's not as simple as that - humans have evolved to require dietary compounds most plants won't produce, but eggs would contain a lot of these.

one of the reasons irish agriculture is so beef-focussed is that one crop we're good at growing in ireland is grass; and the nature of modern agriculture is that you specialise. grow what you're better at growing than other countries are, and don't worry about diversity, because you trade your beef for the tomatoes grown elsewhere.

Escapees · 31-12-2022 1:27pm

A recently turned vegan here, so my post will probably rub folk up the wrong way. I turned vegan for a number of reasons... But the main one, and the one I usually hold back from telling folk, is because I know that eating meat in this day and age is plain and simply unethical.

Sure, it's what has always been done traditionally going back to caveman days, but so were a lot of other practices that we've stopped doing as we advanced. The reality now is that we can very easily get our nutrition from plant food alone. And despite all the misinformation out there, particularly from groups associated with the meat sector and with vested interests, a diet of plant food is clearly better for the environment than the wasteful and inefficient alternative of growing plants to rear animals on before slaughter for their meat.

If anyone is genuinely interested in the facts then there are lots of resources out there. The problem is most people prefer to keep blinkered about them and the whole traditional meat, fish and dairy industry supports this and is more than happy with the status quo.

But there seems to be a big shift happening. Just look at the increase in popularity of plant milk over the last few years. It might not be for ethical reasons but one interesting thing that's come about is that plant milk can now be cheaper than dairy milk. I see the whole meat sector going this way. The cost of meat and dairy production will rise so much that the associated products will become luxury items outside of most people's budget compared to plant based alternatives. That, coupled with the reality that no matter how ethically anyone trys to produce meat or it's derivatives, it just fundamentally isn't ethical anymore to begin with.

I don't mean to offend anyone here, but I have yet to hear of someone eating their well-reared pet dog for Christmas or at the end of its life.

Black Sheep · 31-12-2022 1:32pm

I don't think anyone will be offended, plant based eating is so mainstream at this point.

Strict veganism won't be for everyone however.

El Tarangu · 31-12-2022 3:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120048750#Comment_120048750

From my limited reading on the topic, this would not represent a typical case - a grass-fed cow would need to have its diet supplemented with a higher-protein foodstuff (typically imported soy or corn).

I am curious, if anyone knows, what proportion of a typical cow' calories would come from imported feed - is it 10%, or 50%, or what would it be?

Dial Hard · 31-12-2022 3:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049332#Comment_120049332

Stan Wright (former Leinster player) ate his dog when it died. So there you go, you've heard of one now...

Black Sheep · 31-12-2022 6:26pm

Peter Singer, who I mentioned earlier, surprised a BBC interviewer once by saying he would eat lab grown meat if it became good quality enough. In a segment where he was providing a vegan perspective. He went even further and said in principle he had no problem with eating roadkill in some circumstances.

People sometimes forget that vegetarianism or veganism is not about an absolute objection to eating meat, if it's an animal welfare based argument it's about the intentional element.

The water is muddier when other arguments are advanced, related to climate or health.

For me personally I'm quite convinced by animal welfare arguments, I'm pretty convinced climate arguments hold some water and I'm not so convinced by health arguments.

Dave_The_Sheep · 31-12-2022 7:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049819#Comment_120049819

"When it died" isn't quite how I'd describe that, it's correct but doesn't really contain the whole story (if indeed that story is true).

AndrewJRenko · 31-12-2022 7:55pm

Any experts on the ethics of Irish seafood - I'm thinking about prawns, crab, scallops and fish such as salmon or hake?

Great thread btw, thanks for all contributions.

AyeGer · 31-12-2022 9:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120049332#Comment_120049332

Im not offended, it’s an honourable position to take and many are moving in that direction. I’m at the stage where I am not ready to give up meat but would like if the animals I eat don’t live a miserable existence throughout their lives. Yes they will face the slaughterhouse at the end of their life and that won’t be pleasant, but many humans will face a pretty grim end of life too. I’m not saying that is the perfect solution, far from it but it probably the best solution for those who want to continue to eat meat.

I am willing to pay a higher price for meat from animals that have had a decent existence such as those mentioned above by screamer.

AyeGer · 31-12-2022 9:24pm

A relative of mine was part of a group that raised pigs in England, they would each take turns feeding the pigs. The pigs spent their time in a field as they were reared. I don’t know the full details but they were then brought to a abattoir and the meat was divided out amongst the group. It was in southern England where the weather was good so I’m not sure how it would work in Ireland.

Black Sheep · 31-12-2022 10:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120050851#Comment_120050851

This is quite interesting...

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/adventures-in-small-holding-pig-rearing-for-beginners-557736

There's some red tape, as you'd expect...

I think unless you already have land and a lifestyle that gels, it's probably less of a headache to go with one of the high end butcher / farm outfits that will deliver a whole processed pig to your door in a box. But then I'm pretty lazy 😴!

iniscealtra · 31-12-2022 11:37pm

@El Tarangu It would be less than either of those figures given. Cattle are herbivores. Cattle eat grass and silage/hay in the winter in Ireland. It is múch cheaper to feed cattle on grass harvested and preserved over winter as hay or silage. Also much cheaper. I sometimes fother for my brother (feed cattle) when he’s at a wedding etc. Cattle in sheds get a mix of silage and hay harvested on farm.

Graces7 · 01-01-2023 5:30am

he The older I get the more precious life in all its forms becomes so almost no meat now.

When I walk the lane and there are cattle in the field, they come to the fence and I stroke their soft faces and talk to them. Thet feeds me in a different way. it gets like it would be like eating my cats!

My happiest years were when I had a goat for mlk and made cheese.... and hens for eggs.

We are all and each different.

the beer revolu · 01-01-2023 12:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120051159#Comment_120051159

I don't believe any cow in Ireland is fed exclusively on grass and grass products from the farm they reside on.

I am also curious about what percentage of cattle feed is supplementary.

It's a lovely romantic notion that Irish cattle are "grass fed". I'd like to know the actual truth.

the beer revolu · 01-01-2023 12:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120050615#Comment_120050615

Not an expert, by any means, but I'm becoming less and less comfortable with wild caught seafood.

My issue is the by catch and the destruction to the sea bed. I've seen what trawlers drag up from the sea bed and a pretty small amount of it is selected and kept. The rest goes overboard, dead!

Crabs and lobsters, caught in pots, don't seem so bad to my eye.

Not too much line caught fish available commercially that I see in Ireland.

magicbastarder · 01-01-2023 12:28pm

According to padraig Fogarty's 'whittled away', parts of the Irish sea floor are bottom trawled up to seven times a year and IIRC it's one reason why the Irish sea is murky.

El Tarangu · 01-01-2023 4:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052018#Comment_120052018

There are many, many threads and posts on boards about 'finishing cattle on grass' which would seem to suggest you are correct.

Very curious to know an average figure, if one exists.

Dial Hard · 01-01-2023 5:10pm

Speaking of venison, my aunt just arrived with a loin for me. Shot by my cousin in September, and butchered & hung by him too. Can't wait to get my chops around it.

anewme · 02-01-2023 5:01pm

Interesting thread OP. I was in the exact same boat 3-4 years ago and ended up giving up on meat as I could not find the right sources.

I still eat eggs (from a friends rescue hens) and an weaning my way off cheese (trying to go local where possible)

I believe there are a lot of people in the same boat. We had a local producer of bronze turkeys. He bought the chicks, raised them from chicks on a free range farm and then they sold at Christmas. He had to give up as the price of a chick was the same as a frozen turkey from Lidl/Aldi and not enough would pay for the quality.

I mean, what shortcuts are taken to sell a chicken at 2.99.

I prefer veggie dishes over substitute meat.

It can still be difficult eating out in Ireland and we have a long way to go. If I’m offered one more chickpea curry or pasta and tomato sauce i will go mad!

Muahahaha · 07-01-2023 11:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120052029#Comment_120052029

The other problem with the Irish fishing industry is the absolute exploration of migrant labour (usually Egyptians) who are brought here on work permits that only allow them to work that job, they are like modern slaves. Wages of 2 euro an hour are common and if they get injured or lose a finger, thumb it is tough cookie for them. Its been going on at least a decade now where it seems that some Irish boat owners dont fish themselves at all and instead send exploited labour out to fish for them while they enjoy the profits from that exploitation.

Its only in the last year now that some cases have been coming up in the WRC as Egyptian fishermen were afraid if they stood up for their rights they would be sacked and sent home. RTE had a report recently about one Egyptian fisherman working 17 hours a day with one 20 minute break where he slept on an open deck and then went back to work. Cases in the WRC have heard evidence of another fisherman working 427 hours in a single month. A trawler that sank off Cork last year was found to have two Egyptian fisherman on board who were hired with no work permits and were working 20 hours a day. It is widespread in the industry with Wexford, Howth and Clogherhead all throwing up cases of horrific exploitation of migrant labour so boat owners can make bigger profits.

08-01-2023 12:00am

That’s absolutely horrific, if it’s true.

Any ‘fisherman’ found to be exploiting humans like this should lose their licence, for life, instantly.

No fines. No warnings. Licence gone forever.

Any fisherman found to be doing this should be charged with whatever laws they are breaking. Prison sentences should be the base level of punishment.

Again, if true, it’ll be well known within the industry and those who control it have shown no interest if it’s still going on. They should all lose their jobs and the governing body should be disbanded and set up again with very strict regulation.

Any foreign worker that can prove, within reason, they have been exploited should be fully paid up retrospectively.

People should stop eating fish as from today if any of this is true.

You’d have to worry though because I believe the meat packing industry has a similar scheme going on.

Horrific that the people who run the country can virtue signal towards Qatar, and other countries, when the same is going on in their own country. No surprise though that the country is run by hypocrites.

muddypaws · 08-01-2023 12:24am

I eat local beef and lamb and Andarl Farm pork, got some Crowe Farm outdoor reared rashers and sausages from Lidl recently.

I've cut down on dairy for a couple of reasons, the main one being welfare, a dairy cow doesn't have a great life, and their male calves even worse. So I now use Flahavans oat milk, still supporting Irish farmers but not the dairy industry. I still haven't completely weaned myself off cheese though but am trying.

Muahahaha · 08-01-2023 12:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120080350#Comment_120080350

Its widespread and so is the use of illegal migrants with no work permits so they can exploit them even further.

This case from Wexford

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2022/12/15/migrant-fisherman-found-to-have-worked-427-hours-in-one-month/

Mr Kannas gave evidence of an alleged row with the boat’s skipper, whom he claimed had stopped him using the bathroom when he wanted to pray.

“I’m working for 18 hours straight – he wants to take the six hours as well. I was just late five minutes and he doesn’t want me to do my prayers. Since then he was treating me different and really badly then,” he said.

The skipper “was threatening to cancel my contract if I ever complain,” he added.

After taking leave to recover from a back injury in Egypt, Mr O’Brien said his client returned to Ireland in January 2021 only to find himself “strung along and fobbed off” by his employer when he looked to get back to work.

This one from Cork, two Egyptian fishermen recused off a sinking trawler were found have no work permits or Irish entry stamps on their passports, Gardai are investigating if they were trafficked here.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/lack-of-papers-for-fishermen-rescued-off-cork-coast-under-investigation-1.4540769

The International Transport Federation (ITF), which advocates on behalf of migrant fishermen, said non-compliance with the Atypical Working Scheme (AWS) for sea fishers, which was introduced in 2016 to protect fishers from outside the European Economic Area, was "endemic" in the fishing industry.

“Weak enforcement by the State is facilitating serious abuses,” it said.

They worked on Irish fishing boats in Clogherhead, Howth and Cork where they say they worked up to 20 hours a day

Speaking through an interpreter, they said they experienced a harsh regime on the trawler – working up to 20 hours a day casting nets, pulling them in six hours later, and emptying them, recasting them before spending three to four hours sorting and freezing prawns, with a short break before starting the process again.

Both said they encountered a repeated issue of being paid up to three months late and being paid less than Polish colleagues. When asked why, Mr Elbahlawan, who has worked on fishing boats out of Clogher Head, Co Louth, and Howth, Co Dublin, said: "Because they are European."

These practices have been going on in the Irish fishing industry for almost 10 years now but its only in the last year or so that people are taking notice. The Department of the Marine know full well about it becasue theyve been told often enough but they refuse to do anything about it.

Ive been very uncomfotable about buying Irish fish for some time now knowing that exploitation is rife in the industry.

08-01-2023 8:08am

That’s unreal.

The hypocrisy of the Irish Government is unreal but unfortunately it’s also totally believable.

Shameful that it’s happening and not being highlighted daily.

magicbastarder · 08-01-2023 9:26am

This has been a running story for years; the guardian for example, have done at least half a dozen stories on it.

the beer revolu · 08-01-2023 12:02pm

But, but, but....... What about the struggling, hard working boat owner who had all his quotas sold down the swanny to Europe by a corrupt government???

To be honest, I've always taken poormouthing from Irish fishers with a pinch of salt.

As a wise man once pointed out; if it was really the case that "there's no money in fishing anymore", why are young people getting €millions into debt to buy trawlers, and, more importantly, who would give them the money if it wasn't viable?

Choosing more ethical meat.

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