Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

But according to Michael Sheridan Shirley, in her car, met Bailey and Jules Thomas, in their car, outside the police cordon on the road between 2.15-2.30 p.m. As we now know the rubbish dump closed at 1 p.m. so if she didn't bring the rubbish back, where did she take it? Would a nice English lady art teacher fly-tip in the bog? What was her hurry to dispose of whatever she had?

As to her abandoning the car with the rubbish in it, that is why Shirley needs to be asked under caution who loaded the rubbish and when. She may have unwittingly been disposing of evidence. If Alfie loaded it unseen by her but couldn't drive himself because of his hand that is even more suspicious.

I just want to know what happened to the rubbish. If Jules had set off that morning to Derryconnell with rubbish I'm sure it would be held up as proof of disposal of evidence.

The circumstantial evidence against Bailey doesn't even stack up. Pretty much all of it has been rubbished by the DPP. There's a summary of it in the link below. Well worth a read.

How in the name of fcuk the French got enough evidence to convict Bailey is beyond me. It doesn't say much for the French justice system. By the way, I'm not saying Bailey didn't do it, I'm just saying that there's feckall proof of any sort that he did it.

People seem to think that because they don't know about what the Gardai did with Alfie and Shirley after the discovery then they have been some how overlooked in the whole investigation.

What if the rubbish was nothing more than paper and bottles, or food waste, or old furniture, or any sort of s""t that clearly even from a cursory glance was totally unrelated to the murder ?

What if some of it was of interest to the Gardai and they removed it, looked at it and decided it was of no interest at all.

The thing is we don't know.

And people use these don't knows to build some sort of narrative in their heads that comes to the conclusion that there is more evidence against Alfie and Shirley than against Bailey.

The question I would still have, suppose the Guards found credible new evidence, how are they going to use it? How would the case be prosecuted?

Suppose suspect A says, I have an alibi and was seen in the company of neighbour B or C, but both are now deceased? The thing is, it's quite probable that it won't be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt one way or the other. How can an alibi or a witness be cross examined on memory over a quarter of a century ago? ( I would be surprised if any of us would be able to exactly account for his/her movements on one specific evening or morning 25 years ago...) Same goes for items and evidence gone missing from the scene of the crime. Anybody accused now of the crime also won't be able to prove his/her innocence.

The guards might in the best case scenario be able to establish that another Frenchman was in the area, maybe a Mexican, maybe he or she was a producer as well, maybe he or she was renting a car and establish that beyond reasonable doubt, but I don't think they could go much further. Another stranger in town, travelling through SW Ireland, maybe a dodgy history, but that's it. It still won't prove murder even if he or she knew Sophie personally.

It's just too much time which elapsed in this case and credibility has been lost and I doubt that a fair trial is possible. Not considering how the Guards behaved, the Bandon tapes, the coercion and collusion in the investigation. ( Marie Farell, offering drugs to transients to get close to Bailey.... )

We are all well aware that the DPP rejected the evidence against Bailey.

But evidence against anyone else was so poor that it didn't even get to the DPPs desk.

Yet people here think that there is more evidence against Alfie Lyons, based on nothing but their own imagination.

Most of the evidence for Bailey is based on his strange behaviour. Alfie and Shirley equally behaved oddly but we're not treated as suspects.

Bailey had no motive - it's just peoples 'imaginations' as you say coming up with the theory that he walked for miles drunk to have sex with a stranger. How you can say this is plausible but the druggie next door neighbour having anything to do with it isn't a plausible theory is bizarre.

Bailey is a horrible man. The fact is though Alfie had more motive than Bailey. You have to be able to explore other theories.

Do you honestly believe Alfie and Shirley couldn't possibly be involved? Let's face it they were not salt of the earth people if they were involved in selling drugs.

At the same time no.

But there has never been a file sent about Alfie and Shirley in all these years to the DPP.

No I'm not

I'm answering two different posters.

A file was never sent to the DPP about Alfie and Shirley because the Gardai long ago ruled them out.

In purely evidential terms, the facts that are in the public domain are far more incriminating to Alfie/Shirley than to Bailey.

Alfie and Sophie knew each other - no question. Whereas there is no evidence that Bailey and Sophie were associated in any way. Statistically, a murder victim is far more likley to be murdered by an associate than by a stranger.

Alfie and Shirley were definitely at the scene of the crime at the time. There is no evidence whatsoever which places Bailey there. Clearly, a person who is known to be at the scene of any crime is more likley, ststistically, to be involved than someone who, as far as can be ascertained, was not.

Alfie was in dispute with Sophie. That gives us plausible motive. The only motive Bailey could have had , realistically, was sexual. And there is no evidence of attempted sexual interference with Sophie.

Alfie's wounded hand carries at least as much weight, evidentially, as Bailey's scratches. The injury could not have been that old if it still required bandaging. And Jules and her daughters both confirmed Bailey's explanation.

The contention, on the part of Alfie and Shirley, that they heard nothing while a prolonged life and death struggle played out a hundred yards away on a still and silent night is questionable at least and should be a big red flag.

Shirly's visit to the dump is worthy of investigation. Nothing....nothing at all...should be permitted to be removed from the scene of a murder until the investigation is complete. This was a major failure by the Gardai. Furthermore, why Shirley felt such an urgent need to go to the dump in the circumstances is interesting. If Bailey's bonfire is incriminating, then Shirley's visit to the dump is, at least, equally so.

With regard to Bailey's mouthing off, I see that as being in character....he is an attention seeking narcissist. But I think it is far more typical for a murderer to keep his head down and his mouth shut. So I'm with the DPP on this.

Finally, one other small detail. Why did Alfie say he knocked on Sophies door, immediately after he had seen the body at the gate. I raise this as, to me, it would seem to be a cvonvenient way to head off any questions about fingerprints in that area. ( think the blood stain)

Now, I'm not proposing that Alfie did this. But I am saying that the circumstantial evidence, such as it is, is more indicative of Alfie being the perpetrator than Bailey.

Good post.

I'd just add Alfie's contradicting statements.

When Shirley got back to the house Alfie phoned the Gardaí, neither Alfie or the operator thought to call for medical assistance, so Alfie must have conveyed to the operator that Sophie was already dead. The operator told Alfie not to approach the body. The word murder was used in communications between Gardaí long before any Garda reached the scene. Yet Alfie's statement said he did not go within 20 yards of the victim. I'd say it would be hard to even see the body at 20 yards from either the lane or the lawn, never mind be able to tell she was dead, probably murdered.

Edited to add;

While I believe Alfie had no hand in the killing, he may have been indirectly involved, and knew more than he pretended.

I thought that about the door. Alfie managed to contaminate the door and Shirley went up through the field to contaminate that.

On a side point, in Jim Sheridan's doc Shirley's statement was read by a very simple sounding Irish country woman. Surely his factcheckers would know Shirley is an English art teacher from London. I'm not sure if that was an oversight or a deception. It gives a very misleading representation of the neighbours.

The guards didn't know Shirley herself wasn't the murderer. Yet they let her drive off. For all they knew she could have driven to the airport or port and left the country. It was incredibly lax. I bet the guards in Cork tonight aren't letting bags of rubbish or neighbours leave the vicinity of where the poor Brazilian woman was killed.

Didn't AGS "lose" that as well as the gate?

I think Sophie bought wine in Schull so if she brought this expensive wine with her my guess it would be a present. Well it couldn't be for Alfie and Shirley as according to them they didn't meet her in the 3 days she was there. My hunch would be it was for the Ungerers. But if she did take it to their place on Sunday, how did it end up back at Dreenane?

Maybe if Sophie was upstairs in bed and had left open the back door someone used to prowling in the house came in and lifted it. Perhaps she heard sounds downstairs, laced her boots and set off after them.

It is hard to imagine a scenario not having Sophie as the origin of the bottle. Unless the murderer brought it with them which would indicate someone pretty wealthy living nearby with expensive tastes and connections to France or a stalking ex. Either way they might seek to impress Sophie with this wine. But then the question is where they invited or turn up on spec?

My understanding is that they didn't lose the gate.

It was processed for evidence, and any evidence off it was gathered.

It was then offered back to Sophie's family as is the procedure as it was their property.

They didn't want it so it was destroyed, again as per procedure.

Except for the two! seperate French guys living in the region in fear of their lives from French criminal gangs, both of whom Sophie is supposed to have met at some point in Ireland (according to the newspaper article I linked earlier).

Maybe one of these guys was the source of the bottle.

The shambles of the garda investigation aside, there were also some very "unusual" characters living in the area - most of our discussions (and media) focus on Bailey and Sophie's neighbours, I would love to see the Garda file on this and see how many people were properly investigated (these two French guys, the German who took his own life, the "randy" garda, the Ungerers, Alphie & Sophie, the other neighbours, the housekeeper, the mystery French speaking non-French guy and any number of other strangers that we probably never heard of...