Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

naughtyboy · 02-01-2023 9:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057089#Comment_120057089

Where

I hope farrell won't make the same mistakes as schmidt.

Clegg · 02-01-2023 9:06pm

I don't see the World Cup as the be all and end all like some seem to. I want Sexton to be fit for every Six Nations game as I think we've an excellent chance of winning the tournament if he starts at least 4 of the 5 games.

If that means we've some undercooked 10's going into the WC so be it.

Lost Ormond · 02-01-2023 9:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057421#Comment_120057421

But surely doing something in a world cup which we havent done before is surely far more important than not performing at a world cup yet again would be far better for irish rugby?

We've done everything in world rugby bar perform in a world cup knock out game. surely if we want to be as good as we like to think we are then that has to change. Sexton not involved at all against Italy and not starting against someone else shouldnt be the end of the world.

Clegg · 02-01-2023 9:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057475#Comment_120057475

I just don't think the World Cup is that important. It's a recent invention and doesn't hold the same cultural importance to me the soccer tournament does.

If the choice in this context is between a Six Nations victory with Sexton playing most games, or losing him for a few games, playing a different 10 and risking a tournament victory I'm picking the former every time.

I just can't see Sexton being absent as a blessing in disguise.

sydthebeat · 02-01-2023 9:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057475#Comment_120057475

Sexton not playing in the six nations has absolutely no guarantee of a better impact on how we will do in a world cup.

Will playing Ross Byrne / carbery / Crowley at home against France in March make it more likely that we can beat France away in there following October?

Would shipping a loss at home in that game actual hinder our chances away in October?

Or, if given the choice, would sexton starting both games increase our chances in both games?

If sexton is out for either or both, then you deal with it. However in both cases we are lesser for it.

aloooof · 02-01-2023 9:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057503#Comment_120057503

I just don't think the World Cup is that important.

I think you’re in a small minority so, tbh, Clegg.

If the choice in this context is between a Six Nations victory with Sexton playing most games, or losing him for a few games, playing a different 10 and risking a tournament victory I'm picking the former every time.

But that’s not the choice; playing Sexton gives us the best chance of a tournament victory, but it doesn’t guarantee us anything.

Lost Ormond · 02-01-2023 9:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057503#Comment_120057503

I think it has to. If you want to think Ireland are as good as people have said they are then they have to show it at a world cup. we have never won a knock out game, the number of decent performances for ireland across all world cups can barely be counted on 1 hand.

a world cup is bloody important. It may be a recent invention but its the only chance to really say you are best in the world.

Tests are important and the wins over NZ are top class and nothing diminishes them but beating the All Blacks in a world cup would be something else. We have had four 6 nations titles in just over a decade and we only have 14 titles since start of competition.

Clegg · 02-01-2023 9:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057551#Comment_120057551

It doesn't guarantee us anything, you're right.

But Sexton missing a few Six Nations games doesn't give us any sort of benefit further down the road either. It's not a blessing in disguise which is the original point made.

We have an excellent chance of winning this particular Six Nations considering how the home fixtures fall. I would much rather we have a Sexton led Ireland for this tournament and give ourselves the best chance possible of a victory.

aloooof · 02-01-2023 9:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057582#Comment_120057582

Tbh, I could see some latent benefit to having non-Sexton 10’s starting this 6 Nations and beyond.

But I’d agree that I don’t think it’d benefit us more towards a the RWC than if we had Sexton starting and happened to win the 6 Nations. No disagreement there

Andy Farrell has done brilliantly for Ireland, but you’d imagine a 6 Nations victory is still high up on his list of goals.

Former Former Former · 02-01-2023 11:00pm

Again, not-Sexton started two games in last year's 6N and two of the November tests just gone.

Lack of game time for the alternatives is not the problem. It just isn't, and it never has been.

TRC10 · 02-01-2023 11:38pm

Ireland need to win the Grand Slam this year. We've made huge strides over the last 18 months, but ultimately, we've won nothing this cycle. Winning a Grand Slam is imperative to Ireland's development going into the World Cup (which is the most important event in rugby).

The idea that Sexton's loss is a "blessing" is utter rubbish. He's the best 10 in Ireland by a country mile, and losing him just massively hinders our chances of winning the 6N. There is zero evidence that sacrificing a 6N in a world cup year in order to "build depth" leads to winning a world cup.

I feel like people have an overinflated sense of just how good we are right now. The gap between us and the Waleses, Englands and Australias of this world isn't as big as we'd like to think. Ireland aren't so far ahead of the rest that we can sacrifice a whole 6N playing a mish mash of players and then just turn it on again in September and win a world cup. We need to keep up our momentum, keep improving and keep winning.

And besides, Carbery has started loads of starts for Ireland since he returned from his injury. (Japan, USA, Argentina, France, Italy, NZ* and Fiji). The fact that people still trot out the incredibly lazy and inaccurate "he hasn't gotten enough games" argument, is mind blowing.

*didn't start but played 60 minutes

Neil3030 · 02-01-2023 11:48pm

Podge_irl · 03-01-2023 12:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057404#Comment_120057404

What mistake is that?

If Sexton doesn't start Carbery is going to and the man has 37 caps ffs. Burns and Carty have a bucketful of caps between them but have been deemed not good enough. At this stage the only possibility who could maybe take advantage from the gametime is Crowley but even he has a start against Aus already. And frankly we're almost definitely not beating the ABs or France with him at 10 anyway.

There is no upside to missing Sexton. We just get a glimpse into the dropoff we'll experience when he retires.

Lil Fred · 03-01-2023 12:39am

Is there a definitive update on SeXtons injury? I am seeing a lot of meaninglessness here

molloyjh · 03-01-2023 1:02am

TRC is right. We’ve won nothing under Farrell. The RWC draw and schedule absolutely f*cos us too. We can’t manage our squad as easily as the others on our side of the QFs. We’re up against it to win the RWC too. Ultimately a tenure is defined by what was won in the period. If we win nothing at all then that’s a massive failing. NZ, France, England and Wales have all won something in this cycle. SA can at least say they are the reigning World Cup Champions. We have nothing. We need to win something. And we’ve a better shot at winning this 6Ns than the upcoming RWC.

Dubinusa · 03-01-2023 1:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120056764#Comment_120056764

Yawn!!! Irelands next hope is .....an ex Leinster player. 37 caps! And still..... he's behind an elderly out half. Carberry has taken Munster to such great heights. Get real.

Sexton is on his last season. We need him, whether you like him or not. Today, Sexton is still our out half. Carberry wouldn't get a look if he was playing elsewhere.

ersatz · 03-01-2023 2:40am

Winning a knockout in the WC is definitely required for Ireland to belong in the top 4 or 5 in the world. We need to win more than we have historically across the board. 3 grand slams is a poor return, the likes of England and France will rarely go more than a decade without one and their best teams win a few. At this stage not progressing in the WC is evidence of a deeper issue.

Joe’s legacy was consistent high performance and genuinely competing at the top, building on that means slams, championships, triple crowns and WC knockouts as expectations rather than hopes.

AbusesToilets · 03-01-2023 8:53am

I'd like to see us try other players for kicking duties. If the biggest knock against an OH is his poor kicking percentage, then have someone else kick, and focus on the positives they bring.

Former Former Former · 03-01-2023 10:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058225#Comment_120058225

Scan yesterday, update today.

Shehal · 03-01-2023 11:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057324#Comment_120057324

You do realise im talking about 2019 Ntamack not 2022? In 2019 they were picking Zack Holmes and even Thomas Ramos ahead of him at 10 at Toulouse...

Shehal · 03-01-2023 11:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120057335#Comment_120057335

Im not saying play him instead of Sexton, If Sexton is fit he starts, but if he's out I'd rather us take a punt on Crowley rather than the safe option and back a 10 who will never be any more than just adequate.

Shehal · 03-01-2023 11:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058031#Comment_120058031

No one is ovrinflating, the ranking reflect reality of where Ireland are.

Podge_irl · 03-01-2023 11:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058883#Comment_120058883

For what its worth, I thought something similar about Harry Byrne a year or two ago and boy was I wrong.

irelandrover · 03-01-2023 11:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058883#Comment_120058883

But that is clearly what farrel is trying. Trying frawley at 10 when he doesn't play there for his club. Throwing crowley in ahead of starting players for their provinces.

Picking crowley/frawley ahead of burns/carty/Byrne is exactly what you want and it's what Farrell is doing.

But he also needs to give carbery gametime as he is the current number two.

snotboogie · 03-01-2023 11:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058406#Comment_120058406

Joes record against competitive teams at the World Cup was 3 wins and 3 loses. We lost to Japan under him and got annihilated by a very ordinary Argentina team. His World Cup record is well below par.

Former Former Former · 03-01-2023 12:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058883#Comment_120058883

We absolutely should not be "taking a punt" on players at test level.

Let them prove their worth and earn the jersey, it's the only sane way to do it.

Shehal · 03-01-2023 12:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058906#Comment_120058906

@irelandrover He is trying it, im not criticising Farrell at all for his selection and if anything I have a lot of admiration for him in this regard, my opinions were mainly a response to the fans on here who think Crowley shouldn't start because he hasnt had enough time at 10. Same can be said about Frawley. At the moment maybe but if Sexton is out I would rather we take a gamble on Crowley for instance than Carbery.

@Podge_irl I did too but I think injuries have played a massive role in his lack of progression rather than him not being good enough. If he can stay fit and get a run of games I wouldnt count him out yet as he has the ability.

sydthebeat · 03-01-2023 12:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120059017#Comment_120059017

A very ordinary Argentina that were beating the eventually winners of the competition, new Zealand, until the 60th min in the pool stage, and were the only team apart from south Africa to keep the score within 10 points of the all blacks, who were the run away winners of the competition??

Who's out half finished the competition as highest scorer and the team who scored the most tries in the competition apart from the all blacks and Australia?

That average Argentina?

Irelands problem in that rwc was the game against France where both teams basically knocked each other out, such was the intensity of the game. Neither team could build themselves back up for the week after, with France shipping 62 points against the ABs and Ireland being asleep for the first 30 mins of them Argentina game.

phog · 03-01-2023 12:46pm

In 2020 - excluding the EI tour, Ireland played 13 games.

Five 6Ns
Five games in NZ summer tour
Three AIs

Sexton featured in 8 games, starting 7
Carbery featured in 12 games, starting 3
Frawley started both the NZM games
Crowley featured in two games, started one
Carty benched in one
R Byrne benched in one

Unless Farrell has a major U Turn on his selections then the order of his Outhalf selection is fairly easy to call - Sexton, Carbery and whoever is available from Frawley/Crowley and then break glass.

molloyjh · 03-01-2023 1:05pm

I think some people need to cool their jets on Crowley as well. There’s definitely a shiny new toy element to how some speak of him. He has potential to be good but not much more than that right now. He wasn’t great vs Ulster at the weekend and hasn’t actually played a whole lot at 10 this season. He still has a lot to learn. And he needs to do that at Munster before Ireland start to bump him up the pecking order any further. I have yet to see him run a back line well against half decent opposition. Unless he can do that and until he does then he doesn’t deserve to be ahead of Carbery who can at least do a passable job there in green.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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