Female national record by trans athlete

Ceepo · 03-01-2023 4:45pm #1

Tiffany Newell of Welland, Ont., ran 18:02.30 over 5,000m, breaking the Canadian W45-49 record by six seconds. That record was recently ratified by World Masters Athletics (WMA); it’s the first time WMA has recognized a Canadian record set on the track by a trans woman.

So Tiffany breaks the Wo45 Canadian national 5000m record.

I suppose it was only a matter of time before we seen records broken and no doubt there will be more record's broken in the coming months and years.

No point in closing the stable door now, that horse has well and truly bolted.

Now to be clear I couldn't give a monkeys what way someone wants to live their life or if they want to identify as. But I certainly don't agree that they should be allowed compete in female competitions.

I don't like it, there I said it, and I'm not taking it back.

https://runningmagazine.ca/the-scene/world-masters-athletics-ratifies-first-canadian-record-by-a-trans-female/

Donald Trump · 03-01-2023 5:18pm

She sounds like a strong woman

DownByTheGarden · 03-01-2023 5:23pm

Were there any drugs involved here?

AMKC · 03-01-2023 5:31pm

She is doing nothing wrong. She is a Woman competing in a Womans sport. It's up to the other Women to better themselves to become better athletes.

Ceepo · 03-01-2023 5:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060753#Comment_120060753

Performance enhancing? I wouldn't think so

DownByTheGarden · 03-01-2023 6:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060959#Comment_120060959

Were there any drugs involved here?

Could they be considered performance enhancing if they get you into a division where you have an advantage over others that dont take those drugs?

Im nitpicking here tbh, but i think its a fair point

Ceepo · 03-01-2023 6:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060797#Comment_120060797

How would you define a woman?

Do you think that she would have benefited from 30 years of muscle and tendon strength that testosterone would have gave her.

Ceepo · 03-01-2023 6:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060980#Comment_120060980

The article doesn't suggest any peds were taken.

There is however testosterone reduction medication involved

AMKC · 03-01-2023 6:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060999#Comment_120060999

No because after a few years on Estrogen most of that advantage is lost and she still has to carry a bigger and heavier bone structure because of her disadvantage of having the wrong hormones in her body for however long she had it so if anything she is at a disadvantage.

Ceepo · 03-01-2023 6:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120061053#Comment_120061053

But she wasn't disadvantage by having "wrong hormones" she was born male and as such she produced testosterone. Which on average and I say again average allows for 10/12% speed 25/30% strength difference. Which she would have benefited her from puberty to her transition

KSU · 03-01-2023 6:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120061053#Comment_120061053

The evidence does not support this

Study here shows 12% advantage retained even 2 years post transition

https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577

There is also the matter that Estrogen is only one aspect to the benefits, while RBC and HGB do reduce to levels seen in cis gender women they are still amongst the statistical outliers within the gender. To my knowledge (happy to be corrected) there are no longtitudinal studies which state otherwise

kneemos · 03-01-2023 7:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060797#Comment_120060797

Can't reverse the strength a man gains growing up. Beating a record by six seconds isn't somebody having a good day, it's a completely different league.

py · 03-01-2023 7:06pm

Similar to Ceepo, no issue with how anyone chooses to live their life. Until there are better studies/evidence, imo it would be best to have trans athletes compete against each other.

Ceepo · 03-01-2023 7:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120061236#Comment_120061236

I totally agree. And just because testosterone is suppressed it doesn't mean there's no retention of the benefits gained.

You also need to take into account that women in that age bracket o45/49 may well have their own hormone issues if they're peri/menopausal.

Pherekydes · 03-01-2023 7:28pm

Hormones don't last forever; neither do their effects. It was a particularly weak record. Sinéad Diver averaged 16:50 per 5k during her recent marathon in the same age group.

Danzy · 03-01-2023 7:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120061053#Comment_120061053

That's a very unique interpretation.

Original.

KSU · 03-01-2023 7:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120061369#Comment_120061369

But hormones are not the only variable. Lower limb alignment plays a vital role in injury risk and sex plays a huge role here . Is lower injury risk due to lower Q angle not highly advantageous in terms of trainability especially in masters category?

Spanish Eyes · 03-01-2023 7:41pm

Probably failed to qualify in the biological men's category, so calls trans and beats the bio females. That is not right or fair.

Trans men are men, even with body reassignment or whatever they do. Anyway I thought there was some rule introduced banning men who transition after puberty from participating in women's sport? Maybe it doesn't apply to Canada, and I could have my facts wrong too.

Ceepo · 03-01-2023 7:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120061369#Comment_120061369

To the best of my knowledge this is the first record to be broken, maybe there's is more that aren't as public yet. Idk.

To me it doesn't really matter what time they ran, or whether the previous record was "soft" or not. If you're focused on the time you're missing the point imo.

AMKC · 03-01-2023 7:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120061420#Comment_120061420

Trans men are men, even with body reassignment or whatever they do. Anyway I thought there was some rule introduced

I was going to say your wrong but actually you are right yes Trans Men are men and yes Trans Women are Women.

So well done for being right on that one.

riffmongous · 03-01-2023 7:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120061420#Comment_120061420

Yes I'm sure she took such a monumental life change purely to compete in the prestigious 45-49 years old championships

Sandwell · 03-01-2023 8:38pm

It's barely worth trying to have these conversations on here as they invariably attract the worst people on the internet. I don't know enough about the science involved to have an opinion.

Spanish Eyes · 03-01-2023 8:56pm

I obviously made a mistake above. Trans women are biological men. Nothing can change that at all, it's a fantasy. Gender identity is one thing, but a man cannot become a woman ever, and vice versa. Gender is not biological sex.

I really do think that sportsmen who transition and participate in female sport are failures in their own male categories. No other way to stay competitive other than pretending you are a woman right?

They can wear a dress, paint their nails, lips eyes, wear falsies, high heels, the works. It doesn't make them women. The rational unwoke world knows this. The emperor has no clothes.

Calahonda52 · 03-01-2023 10:56pm

I agree with OP, lives are for living whatever the complexion.

3rd and 4th and 5th category needed

male who trans to female,

female who trans to male

Other

Complete bolloZ or lack there of as the case may be

03-01-2023 11:02pm

It's a bloke which ever way you want to dress it up!

I wonder how do the genuine female athletes feel about this

nonsense competing in their sport. It makes a mockery out of

years of hard work in training & effort!

babacool · 04-01-2023 8:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120061701#Comment_120061701

Couldnt agree more. My first reaction to this post been "what do you care?" then "so you envy them for now being able to compete? What stops you from just doing the same?" to now "hmmm...maybe he/she is on to something. What would Infantino do (you know this Fifa dude)?" and then I thought: this is brilliant!

We currently have Men Records and Women Records. Both generate fields, marketing and (for some like certain shoe companies) money. So why not taking this opportunity and creating a third field? TransG Records?! Means more races/categories. More advertising more spotlight etc and hence more money! :D

average_runner · 04-01-2023 9:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120061462#Comment_120061462

Science of Sport covers this topic very well, worth a listen about the actual science.

I don't care how people live their lives, but women spent so long fighting for their rights in sport, it can't be thrown away now.

Ideal solution is to have two new categories, trans men and trans women, same financial prizes as other categories and time will show if there is any advantage

longrunn · 04-01-2023 10:41am

In all sports there should be just two categories, Open and Womens. In the Open category anyone can compete, male or female or trans. In the Womens it would be just for biological women. I think this would go a long way to improving equality in sport, especially for field sports like soccer. The Open category would probably be dominated by biological males due to inherent physical advantages in strength and speed but it would allow women and trans that have other compensating attributes to compete at the highest level. For the women that don't have the necessary compensating attributes, there would still be a Womens category to provide them with a level playing field.

kneemos · 04-01-2023 11:20am

You might struggle to come up with enough trans men or women to make a team or race at competition level.

Buddy Bubs · 04-01-2023 11:41am

What a time to be alive!

Imagine the history books of the future and how they will look at this period. Or era, sorry. Might not be allowed say period in the future.

AMKC · 04-01-2023 12:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120061836#Comment_120061836

obviously made a mistake above. Trans women are biological men. Nothing can change that at all, it's a fantasy. Gender identity is one thing, but a man cannot become a woman ever, and vice versa. Gender is not biological sex.

Actually no but you are making mistakes now.

Trans Women are Women. It's not a fantasy.

Well if a man is a man and happy with his male parts then yes he will never become a Woman but if someone is born with the wrong parts in the wrong body and they know this be it a woman in a male body or a man in a female body then yes they are a Woman or a Man just with the wrong body parts and they might have lived as they thought society expected them to live untill they do not have to anymore and can live as there true authentic self.

I really do think that sportsmen who transition and participate in female sport are failures in their own male categories. No other way to stay competitive other than pretending you are a woman right?

That's rubbish

First of all a person changing to there preferred gender has to be on Hormones at least a year before you can undergo any gender affirming surgery like ffs or GRS Surgery and unless you have lots of money or live in America with a good job and insurance this can take years to happen.

It would be far easier for a male to work out a bit harder as a male and get better that way than it would to put there whole life on hold and start changing gender so they then can compete in Woman's sports. That's utter rubbish

It's TERF Territory. Are you a TERF?

They can wear a dress, paint their nails, lips eyes, wear falsies, high heels, the works. It doesn't make them women. The rational unwoke world knows this. The emperor has no clothes.

I agree all that materialistic stuff does not make them a Woman the same way it does not make a Woman a Woman. It's just makes you look and feel better and pretty.

They were women already before all that stuff.

So you are saying the World that is asleep knows this lol.

Spanish Eyes · 04-01-2023 1:35pm

@AMKC

Self ID means that hormonal treatment and gender reassignment are not necessary. Just rock up and say you are a woman, and bingo yes, sign here and get a new birth certificate and passport my dear.

It is all total fantasy. A lot of this trans stuff is the result of a herd mentality and often comes from those who have autism. I think it is hatred of women which is contradictory, but many radical trans want to get into women's spaces and intimidate them. But if anyone questions the daftness of all this they are called TERF. No debate is receding.

Strange that transmen don't seem to have the same anger/dominance/superior issues as transwomen isn't it?

The tide is turning. If people want to change gender that's no problem. They cannot change their sex though. It's the Y chromosome you see. That cannot be excised.

average_runner · 04-01-2023 1:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063816#Comment_120063816

There is already trans categories in the major marathons and the America utlras

average_runner · 04-01-2023 1:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064020#Comment_120064020

Really listen to a few good podcasts. Rugby won't allow trans women in women's rugby as they did a study and showed they can hit alot harder, so its a danger.

There is science proof that after hromones treatment, men that become a woman still retain the benefits of a man in peformance.

For example one of the studies said a 2:05 male marathon runner, would run 2:10 if they change sex.

The USA trans swimmer times only showed a 10% deficit in his previous pb's!!!!!

Ceepo · 04-01-2023 2:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064020#Comment_120064020

"Trans Women are Women. It's not a fantasy.

Well if a man is a man and happy with his male parts then yes he will never become a Woman but if someone is born with the wrong parts in the wrong body and they know this be it a woman in a male body or a man in a female body then yes they are a Woman or a Man just with the wrong body parts and they might have lived as they thought society expected them to live untill they do not have to anymore and can live as there true authentic self."

I'm not suggesting that gender dysphoria is not a reality for some people and I'm sure it can cause a multitude of issues for them. However if someone is born male and lives past puberty then the will have benefited physiologically from all the male hormone that goes with it, (average 30% strength and 12% speed) whether that individual believes they're in the wrong body or not. It also doesn't matter where they place in a competition, if they have gained an unfair advantage over there competitors, its still unfair.!

As I said previously, I'm happy for them to live their lives what ever way the choose. This isn't about how they are included in general society but about how they're included in a sporting context and the fairness around that.

I don't think anyone would disagree that women have the right take part in sports. (and rightly so) And if we agree they should take part, then in order to afforded them the chance to be competitive and have a chance of winning, they need to have their own separate women's category. It shouldn't be about whether transgender are allowed to take part in sport either more is it right to allow someone who has gained the advantageous physiology benefits of male puberty compete against someone who hasn't.

We (general term) need to take into account that the very fact of including transgender women in sport we risk excluding other women from taking part. An example of this is where there's qualification process.. Say 6 to qualify for a final then the 7th place missed out, same for semi final, quarter final etc etc.

babacool · 04-01-2023 6:07pm

I “love” how some here say “I have no issue with them. Everyone to their own BUT…” not realising the moment the but kicks in one can basically disregard what’s been said before.

my take on this one is: “if I was the national record holder, I would be pissed off by anyone snatching that away and yes I would probably be extremely pissed off if that Person has an advantage that I don’t have”. At least that would be the initial reaction. What comes after depends on how that Person acts. If she is now celebrating it as a massive accomplishment and like “im the greatest runner ever” then yes I can understand everyone who thinks negatively about that.

if she does not really celebrate it and perhaps even says “don’t add me to the record books” then honestly i have no issue with that. It is what it is and it just means I have to work harder.

i mean what is she supposed to do? She clearly has joy in running and performing. Should she stop running just because she wants to be seen as a woman? should she be forced to enter as a male just because a minority has an issue with her being a she? Let’s just enjoy the show regardless of who performs. I like the whole open Race theory. Let’s put away with all this gender shite. Let’s compete all together and if you still want thinks broken down, break it down.

look at DCM. we have overall winners and rankings. Then we break it down by gender. Than further by age group. And even the age group we break down in so many parts. No harm in adding even more to that. Still means everyone is treated equally! And you can still have your pure gender records. It just depends at what level you add the gender breakdown.

either way, if you pro or con always consider: how would she feel if she reads this? Scared? Ashamed? Supported?

now “attack” me if you like. Don’t care 😁

Murph_D · 04-01-2023 6:51pm

@AMKC wrote:

It's TERF Territory. Are you a TERF?

More a situation-specific TE. You don't need to be a RF to be in favour of protecting the women's sports by excluding trans. It's a question of integrity, safety and fairness, as many have said.

Jarhead_Tendler · 04-01-2023 6:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060797#Comment_120060797

That is cock n bull

AMKC · 04-01-2023 7:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065950#Comment_120065950

Actually it's Cullin Cock lol.

Ceepo · 04-01-2023 7:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065780#Comment_120065780

A lot to unpack here.

I personally think you have to differentiate between sporting and socially. In Society, no issue whatsoever, but I would have in a sports context for the reason outlined, fairness and safety for a start.

You say you would extremely pissed of if they had an advantage you didn't. Well that's the reality for women that compete against them.

"Let’s put away with all this gender shite. Let’s compete all together and if you still want thinks broken down, break it down." Isn't this what's happening at present outside of mass participation runnning events. For track and field you have to narrow down the fields for logistical reasons. So how would you propose they do that if not by gender? And at a masters level age and gender categories.

babacool · 06-01-2023 11:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066202#Comment_120066202

yea, you see... that's what i don't like about those discussions. you take one part and disregard what came after. so to complete my statement again "At least that would be the initial reaction. What comes after depends on how that Person acts." - I was pissed of at runners in 2019 when they wore them nikes and I didn't. Pissed of for the first 5min especially since some thought they were the greatest athletes in the whole world now. Don't want to start a shoe discussion now ;). Just showing that there is always a reason to be pissed off about something. But like I said its the "what happens next" that defines my personal opinion. And if those having an advantage or not by changing the gender - I am not a scientist. I cannot confirm or deny that. I am certain there are studies out there, that will confirm that but I am also certain there are studies which will deny that.

With regards to the categories, i sure agree it is hard to break it down but in the end it is needed if who really want something that is fair and works for everyone and not just some. Open field = everyone is equal. You want to have it "fair" and that you only compete against those like you (whatever that means then), you break it down. It isn't really that much different to Paralympics is it? You just need to classify and categories. It will involve a lot of effort and won't be easy to do but it will take away this whole "unfairness" discussion.

Oh and i never said "don't do it by gender" - read or quote it correctly please! I said "Then we break it down by gender. Than further by age group. And even the age group we break down in so many parts. No harm in adding even more to that. Still means everyone is treated equally! And you can still have your pure gender records. It just depends at what level you add the gender breakdown."

How would I break it down? I don't know and I don't need to know as I don't moan about "unfairness". But best would be in that order:

Open Race
Men/Women (including TransGender)
TransGender (Men to Women, Women to Men)/Women/Men
Women Age Groups/ Men Age Groups/ TransGender Age Groups
Whatever other level you can think of.

Like I said, I like a discussion and i can understand those against and those pro to it. All I am not getting is this "attacking" someone. Sure there are definitely some who might just go through all that transition just in order to compete and win something. But lets face it, the majority does it for no other reason than feeling happy with themselves.

Lazare · 06-01-2023 1:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065937#Comment_120065937

This whole argument (don't mean this thread, generally) is a sh1tshow.

What I find interesting when this TERF nonsense is thrown at people defending women's sports is the fact that Trans men are welcome to compete.

tastyt · 06-01-2023 1:49pm

Its absolute nonsense and the people most against this are women who are competing and involved in these sports . Years of training and sacrifice to be the best only to be taken away by a male athlete who has decided they are now a woman and has taken a few hormones .

Its the Karens that need to be seen fighting the cause that are for this , no level headed person that has ever been involved in sport .

Its brilliant and refreshing to see high profile female athletes like Sharon Davies and Sonia O Sullivan call out this nonsense for what it is and not bow to the intimidation

Ceepo · 06-01-2023 7:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120073264#Comment_120073264

I get what your saying and wasn't deliberately cherry picking.

Maybe I should have a little clearer. This is the way I read your post. You say your personal response initially would be extremely pissed off. But then it might change a bit depending on the the person actions "greatest runner" comment.

I'd make the point that in the transgender case you simply cannot look at it that way, where a nice reaction or person is treated differently. There has to be a clear defined line of what is and isn't allowed.

That's why I said in a previous post that it doesn't matter what time they run position they finish in.

I and i never said "don't do it by gender" - read or quote it correctly please!

I never said you did😉

I quoted this "Let’s put away with all this gender shite. Let’s compete all together and if you still want thinks broken down, break it down."

And I responded with "Isn't this what's happening at present outside of mass participation runnning events. For track and field you have to narrow down the fields for logistical reasons. So how would you propose they do that if not by gender? And at a masters level age and gender categories.

So outside of open race such as marathons or road race, all other track and field events are in categories devided by gender, first and foremost, then sub categories ie age or as you said para Olympics. So you simple away "put away all this gender shite"

As was mentioned by another poster some of the major marathons now a "non binery" section and have prize money for that section. Which is a progressive move by them. However my understanding at the moment is they aren't eligible for overall prizes. (could be wrong here).

Maybe having a specific trans section is the way forward, however there is a difference between having non binary section and having a specific Trans section. In that trans athletes are campaigning to compete in the category they see themselves as. In the specific case. A woman, and as such wants to run in the women's section.

We'll leave the shoes out of it 😉😂

Enduro · 23-03-2023 6:10pm

Seb Coe and world Athletics now making some big definitive calls on this issue. Good to see fairness in the Female Category being prioritised.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/mar/23/world-athletics-council-excludes-transgender-women-from-female-events

Larbre34 · 23-03-2023 8:00pm

Its good that the WAC have come out so definitively on this matter, albeit a little late.

Women need to be protected physically and competitively across the sporting spectrum.

Ceepo · 23-03-2023 8:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392951#Comment_120392951

I seen this earlier.

It follows in from British athletics last month looking for a change in the law to allow transgender to complete in male category.

https://news.sky.com/story/british-athletics-call-for-transgender-women-to-compete-with-men-in-open-category-12802284?authId=1*2csy0v*_a*TWFjQ1RNUGI0aTA5cFFXTVVCSEhZVC1HSllWOFZEdUdQVGw1MWM2RjVaLVFuVHc2RmlPWTdETHdYWnN6SlY1UA..

The article states that it's for elite athletes, I hope it will filter down to all categories.

Ceepo · 24-03-2023 8:01am

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1639004509245677576?t=d6cjT6EN0-uaaNQ5qH37_w&s=19

Good point raised by Ross Tucker.

"is not science, they knew it years ago, I'm sure it's part of it, but real change here came when women's athletes refused to be ignored anymore"

whatnext · 24-03-2023 8:20am

I know very little about the trans issue and being quite honest care very little about it as it hasn’t impacted me in any way in my life to date. However having read a number of threads here on the topic and particular the arguments in favour of integrating trans women into womens sport my opinion is that trans women should have a category in para sports. The argument seems to be that trans peoples brain is in conflict with their body and that it is not an mental or psychological issue and therefore by default is a physical issue. So should there be a Paralympic category for trans athletes?

I’m only stating an opinion. It may be politically incorrect, I honestly don’t know. But does the opinion warrant a discussion?

average_runner · 24-03-2023 8:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394522#Comment_120394522

While I do believe there should be their own category in the olympics and not para olympics, i think saying they have a physical issue is not correct.

Ross Tucker was very good on this and got alot of abuse over it. But the one thing that stood out for me in what he said "Inclusion is exclusion"

Ceepo · 24-03-2023 11:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394522#Comment_120394522

I get what you're saying but the way I see it is this

Trans women (biological male) see themselves as women and want society to see them and accept as women. They don't want to be excluded from society or sport on that basis. So I don't see that they would even consider their own category in the special Olympics. They are arguments lie around being included in all aspects of life as they see themselves. Yes they are a minority in society, but does that give them the right to be included in sports at the exclusion of someone else.

Female national record by trans athlete

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