Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Former Former Former · 03-01-2023 3:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060094#Comment_120060094

sydthebeat · 03-01-2023 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060094#Comment_120060094

The point being that if youre comparing outhalves, and point to a break that one player made, you need to accept that he didnt make that from the 10 channel but further outside. And the less said about that ulster non-defensive line the better.

is crowley a better open field runner that Bryne, yes absolutely. Is byrne capable of finding a hole to break through in a rush defense, absolutely yes he is.

Byrne played a couple of games last season at 12 outside of sexton and didnt look out of place. He certainly doesnt have a lightning break, like crowley does, but hes a very clever player who can see a hole develop in a line and can put a player through.

with sexton most likely out for a while now, and an ireland camp due in 4 weeks, i expect both players to be involved in the training squad... from there anything can happen.

for whats it worth, i really hope crowley does develop into a true test level 10 over the next few months, and give us an extra option, however i think gametime is running out.

aloooof · 03-01-2023 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060125#Comment_120060125

Ah look, he’s obviously going to have made some breaks at 10.

But the larger point is, if you’re asking who has the better footwork, is faster and threatens the line more regularly?

I think it’s Crowley.

Former Former Former · 03-01-2023 4:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060190#Comment_120060190

Of course it is.

But if speed and footwork was what we need from an OH, Carbery would be first choice for Ireland.

I'm optimistic about Crowley as an option for Ireland, but to be honest I was more optimistic before the game against Ulster and his 20 minutes at 10 against Leinster.

Podge_irl · 03-01-2023 4:11pm

Sexton's speed and footwork and ability to threaten the line are 100% part of what makes him the player he is though, and Byrne categorically does not have that.

aloooof · 03-01-2023 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060211#Comment_120060211

I’m not saying that’s all we need from an OH any more than you’re saying, say, RB’s cross-field kicking is all we need.

But it is a big point of difference between them.

And I think Crolwey suits Irelands attacking game plan more than RB. (I think RB would’ve suited Schmidt’s style better).

sydthebeat · 03-01-2023 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060246#Comment_120060246

why are you comparing Ross Byrne to Johnny Sexton? thats a difference comparison completely, and no one here is suggesting Ross Byrne is as good as, or ever will be as good as, johnny sexton.

Podge_irl · 03-01-2023 4:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060261#Comment_120060261

Of course he won't be as good. But they style of game we play relies on a credible threat from the 10 channel (or the 10 in a further out channel) and Byrne does not provide that. So speed and footwork are things we need from a 10 the way we play the game.

sydthebeat · 03-01-2023 4:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060271#Comment_120060271

Byrne has had two starts for ireland, both against a very dominant england.

we have had Jack Carty play plenty of times for ireland, who many consider as a gainline attacking 10, and we've seen that not work for many reasons including the "lack of control" reason.

for leinster, Byrne doesnt need to be that gainline attacking 10, all he needs to do is arrange the backline and pick the pass, which he does to a very high level.

Until we see Byrne start against a scotland / wales / italy, i think it is a bit premature to write off his international chances. For now, hes fighting against crowley for a bench spot due to sextons injury.

Podge_irl · 03-01-2023 4:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060311#Comment_120060311

And Ireland are never going to have the kind of dominance up front that Leinster enjoy week to week. Nor are they going to be facing as weak defences in the backline. My opinion is not based on his starts against England, I can't even remember them.

Carty is obviously not the answer either - we don't have anyone who is the answer. But its not Carty and its not Byrne because they both have to many limitations (even if the latter is better). This is why Frawley/Harry Byrne/Crowley have been invested in by Farrell.

Former Former Former · 03-01-2023 4:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060259#Comment_120060259

I'm in no way arguing for RB to be in the Ireland team.

However, we have seen nothing from Crowley's recent outings at OH to suggest he really is the guy to get the backline moving either. He's looked better with ball in hand when he's playing 12 or 15, just like Carbery does, just like Frawley does, just like Madigan did... but that's not what we want from him.

Still, very small sample size and if he is named in the 6N squad, it will be an endorsement that Ireland think he's worth looking at again, and that's good enough for me.

03-01-2023 4:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060333#Comment_120060333

Yeah, overall this is how I feel about it.

If Sexton & Carbery were out, and Ireland had to beat any of: Scotland / Wales / Argentina / Japan / Italy etc tomorrow, then I'd be more confident in Ross Byrne to just get the job done in the kind of nuts and bolts way he can for Leinster a lot of the time.

If Ireland had to try and beat one of the southern hemisphere big three or England / France tomorrow then I'd think we've possibly got a better shot with the spark Jack Crowley could give us over Ross Byrne. (TBC - I don't think we could win in that scenario right now either, but I do think he can offer more in attack).

I have no problem with investing more time in Crowley now because I think his ceiling is a lot higher than Ross Byrne's.

naughtyboy · 03-01-2023 6:42pm

I see the mistake I made

Let me fix it, if Sexton does not play he should be replaced by one of Ross Byrne, Harry Byrne, frawley, O'brien, ringrose,

Crazy stuff, I thought we had all moved on from this

RichieRich_89 · 03-01-2023 6:51pm

I'd imagine Harry Byrne will come back in ahead of Ross Byrne if he can stay fit.

aloooof · 03-01-2023 11:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060418#Comment_120060418

The flip side to this is that Farrell will have seen plenty of RB at 10 since he took charge and has still only deigned to give him a handful of minutes.

Presumably, there’s a reason for that.

For all the disagreement, I think there’s a lot of agreement on what they both actually offer.

And I don’t think it’s that controversial to suggest Crowley suits Irelands style better than RB.

Rigor Mortis · 03-01-2023 11:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119990164#Comment_119990164

In fairness its not one game. Ulster have been poor since the Leinster game.

The argument is over the top, but on form you would struggle to select anyone other than McCloskey.

Must love hardship · 03-01-2023 11:42pm

I think the 3 10's selected for the 6 nations will be: Carberry Crowley and Ross Byrne. With maybe Nathan Doak selected as a 4th 9/ development player.

Frawley is still on the long term injury list. Harry is being eased back into it.. Maybe sextons injury gives Harry a chance to get a few games for leinster.. but while he hopefully starts this weekend. You'd imagine Ross starts the 2 Champions cup games.

For me Ross is a decent 3rd choice outhalf option for ireland come the world cup. Maybe he's not going to light it and run one in from half way but he's very competent, plays and trains on a daily basis with 3/4 of the irish team and if there was a kick in the last minute to win a world cup final id have no fear of him nailing it..

Can't see carty or burns near it on current form.

AbusesToilets · 04-01-2023 12:20am

I was very pro Ross Bryne last season before the HC final. He really wilted that day in a way that surprised me. If Sexton is out, I still think Carty would suit the style Farrell wants to play the best. If the knock against him is his kicking game, then have Ringrose kick.

Former Former Former · 04-01-2023 12:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120062712#Comment_120062712

It's not his goal kicking

Akrasia · 04-01-2023 12:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060081#Comment_120060081

Man of the match 5 star poor performance by Crowley against Ulster, the team that most leinster fans say are better than Munster these days....

AdamD · 04-01-2023 12:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120062712#Comment_120062712

The problem with Carty is that he's not a very good outhalf who also happens to be unreliable from the tee

Akrasia · 04-01-2023 12:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060211#Comment_120060211

Sexton's power is in his ability to take defenders to the defensive line and put attacking players into space behind him

Crowley is the best attacking 10 (after Sexton) Ireland at the moment

The reason Sexton is so good is because the game is built around his strengths

We can't afford to have a team built around a specific player who won't be availabe for the main event

We either need another player to fill his shoes, or a backup strategy that suits another players' strengths

Former Former Former · 04-01-2023 9:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120062791#Comment_120062791

The reason Sexton is so good is because the game is built around his strengths

The reason Sexton is so good is because he's very, very, very good. The game that Ireland play is different to the one that Leinster play, which is different to the one that Ireland played under Schmidt, yet Sexton is always the standout player.

Crowley is the best attacking 10 (after Sexton) Ireland at the moment

Maybe he is, but he hasn't shown that yet. As of now, Carbery is miles ahead of any challenger, either at Munster or Ireland. The MOTM the other night was a sideshow, Crowley did not play well in his main duties as an OH.

We're simply not going to chuck our playbook out the window and start again to suit Carbery or Crowley or anyone else. It's up to the players to fit the strategy and tactics, not the other way around. That's why Sexton is so good, he can play whatever type of game you ask of him.

Akrasia · 04-01-2023 9:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060311#Comment_120060311

Ah here, you could pick a donkey at 10 and still expect to beat Scotland and Italy

We need a player that can beat the best teams in the world.

Sexton is the first choice but he's not guaranteed to be fit so we need a backup

sydthebeat · 04-01-2023 10:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063242#Comment_120063242

We have a back up. His name is Joey Carbery

We're basically having an argument now as who our "Beaver" is.

And I know who I'd want to be kicking the winning penalty in a RWC final

phog · 04-01-2023 10:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063266#Comment_120063266

And I know who I'd want to be kicking the winning penalty in a RWC final

But would we get to a point in a RWC final with the person who you want to kick that penalty

sydthebeat · 04-01-2023 10:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063290#Comment_120063290

Again, we're arguing about who will be Irelands third choice out half.

The chances of us going through the competition and getting to the final without first and second choice out halves are incredible small, no matter who that is ...

phog · 04-01-2023 10:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063310#Comment_120063310

I'm not arguing with anyone about who will be our 3rd choice outhalf, however, I agree with you on how slim our chances of getting to a RWC Final are without our 1st & 2nd choice outhalf but then I wonder why you'd bother with this "And I know who I'd want to be kicking the winning penalty in a RWC final" It adds nothing to the debate that some poster want on who our 3rd choice will be.

sydthebeat · 04-01-2023 10:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063341#Comment_120063341

it was in reference to the Beaver i mentioned earlier in the post... apologies for it being too opaque

aloooof · 04-01-2023 10:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063266#Comment_120063266

And if we needed a try in the last 10 mins? I know who I’d want there too.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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