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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

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  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭EdHoven


    What about the champagne? There are two mentions in Irish newspapers. A French blog says two French investigators noted Ian Bailey gave a detail about the champagne bottle propped up against a wall. They took this as him having been inside the house. Maybe that is why there are no photos of the bottle if its position is germane.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,137 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It may not be related to her but...

    How many of those people leave expensive bottles of wine in a nearby field?

    And how many of them are close to the location where the bottle was found.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    How many French passing that way? Throwing an unopened bottle of expensive wine out the window?



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,137 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    AH response: People seem to be getting confused between the Tour de France riders throwing away empty bidons into ditches ... and unopened bottles of expensive French wine.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,243 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    They didn't have to be French, it was available at duty free, it could have been available in other countries, we know that it just was not available in Ireland in regular off licenses.

    And as I said there are a lot of European people that visit, live in or have holiday homes in west Cork, it could have come from anywhere.

    Plus it was found far enough away from, and on a busier road than Sophie's boreen to make it difficult to link to the crime.

    Why a full bottle ended up in the location it did and when I have no idea, but the possibilities are varied, endless almost, and don't immediately point to it having a connection with the murder.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭EdHoven


    The other day I said the guards were lax letting Shirley drive off but the it occurred to me if Bailey had done it why didn't he skedaddle on the Cork - Swansea ferry? Why hang around?



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,137 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    And then to where? He could be extradited from UK.

    And he didn't even need to do that... just lie low with a 'flu' for the festive period, if he did get scratches at the scene they were easily concealed for a short period.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Not only did he not skedaddle or even lie low for a while, instead he thrust himself into the middle of the investigation. Didn’t he go to the Garda station in the week or so after the murder under some pretext like reporting cancelling a party, just to poke around and ask what progress was being made. The Garda he spoke to, when logging it actually wrote “suspect ?” After Bailey’s name. I know he was probably one of many suspects at that stage, but why bring attention on himself?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,788 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    How can the bottle of wine found approx. 1km from the scene of the murder months after the killing be construed as a black mark against Bailey?

    We don't know the origins of the bottle of wine. I don't think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that it has even been proven that Sophie owned the bottle of wine or ever had it in her possession. There's no evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to tie Bailey to the bottle of wine.

    I don't think there is any evidence to show that the bottle of wine is relevant to the murder. Agreed, it does seem strange for it to turn up where it was found, but that doesn't make it relevant unless further information can be gathered, which seems unlikely at this stage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Was/Is it possible from the label to identify when it was sold, who bought it and where exactly?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 30,137 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    No only that it wasnt sold here but was on sale in French duty free.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,788 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    And presumably it was sold in France too, and not just in the duty free?



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,137 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Hmm. Presumably yes. There are travel retail exclusive whiskies but havent heard of that being the case re French wine in that period.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01



    Even by today's wasteful standards, you wouldn't see too many natives slinging a ten quid bottle of plonk into the ditch, even if it tasted like vinegar... Just doesn't happen! At the very least, we re-wrap it and palm it off as a birthday present on some low pecking family member...

    But to throw a hundred quid bottle of the good stuff into the ditch, and drive away.... C'mon!

    Not available in Ireland, but available in the duty free.... So somebody brought it into the Country and heading down towards Sophie's gaff..?? Well no sh*t Sherlock...!

    But it might not have been related to Sophie's murder?? Could be some holiday makers heading down to their fancy holiday homes...??

    Whoa Boy.....!! Gotta stop you there....

    Sophie was a upper class piece of crumpet, had a fine leg on her, was a woman of taste, and well used of the better things in life.... She wasn't the type of bird you would call to, with a bag of cans to get her in the mood with...

    She mingled with the jet set, and enjoyed all the trappings that that life style embraced.. She would have appreciated a good drop of Claret, but the good ones come with an expensive price tag...

    The wine was almost certainly connected to Sophie's demise.... What the wine was meant for is anybodies guess?? Peace offering, surprise, celebration, joint appreciation of good french wine...??

    Whatever it was meant for.. It didn't quite pan out that way. Somebody slung it out of the window on a route that could be deemed as leaving Sophie's cottage...

    Yeah I know it could be going a different direction too... But why would some random driver, suddenly get the urge to throw a bottle of expensive wine out of the window and motor on into oblivion....

    The wine is connected to Sophie... Only an idiot would think otherwise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭animalinside


    So why would the killer throw the bottle out of the window? It's easy to hide a bottle surely.

    Maybe someone had an alcohol problem, splurged on a £100 bottle of wine and in the end threw it away? I've thrown away perfectly good non-perishable junk food, and I don't have any weight problem.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    That seems more of a stretch than it was connected to Sophie?

    Do people with alcohol problems buy and bring expensive bottles of wine into the country? Back in 1996! With inflation etc. it would be more like a 200Euro bottle now..



  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01


    I don't think you are joining up the dots here....

    Think more along the lines of reality kicking in... Object in the car that can tie me to the crime scene... Guards could be on the way now.. Could be checkpoints set up on the roads .... Can see headlights in the distance...

    Window down.. Lose the booze!



  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭EdHoven


    He is the only person we know who was stopped on the road and told there was a police cordon. I know the location of that interaction is more likely the narrow lane.

    In my opinion if Sophie had gifted the wine to anyone e it would be the Ungerers. As I pointed out before the late Tomi Ungerer was into bondage. If Bailey had drawn this cartoon I'm sure we'd hear all about it. I am not saying Tomi did it but pointing out how circumstantial evidence can be construed from anything if you disfavour the person.




  • Registered Users Posts: 848 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch



    Yes....that would be the most likely explanation.

    It then raises the question of why it was in the person's posession: Had the person received it as a gift from Sophie? Or had the person brought it to Sophie with the intention of offering it as a gift?



  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭EdHoven


    I wonder if the guards ever asked MF if she used Sophie's place as a "love nest"? Had Sophie left the door unlocked and someone who was used to being in the house (the mystery bath user) entered, mooched about, picked up the wine and left in a vehicle, then Sophie put her boots on and gave chase. Hit by car then finished off with block. Bottle then thrown out during getaway.

    Really there are so many scenarios but without DNA advances it is all conjecture.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 30,137 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It is an interesting angle, but while there were concerns someone was using the place a few years back - specifically that the bath had been used.

    According to housekeeper Josephine Hellen they changed the locks and didn't see any further evidence of use when Sophie wasn't there.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Sophie liked her red wine, she had just flown in from Paris, there was a duty free carrier bag from Paris airports just inside her front door. Sophie most likely brought the wine with her, I don't know what fine wines would be stocked in Spar in Schull. The wine was probably taken from her house by someone with access. Nothing to do directly with the murder, except it was taken over the weekend she was murdered and either discarded when the news broke, or hidden to retrieve later and failed to find it when the time came. Thefts from remote holiday homes is not uncommon. (I know from experience).



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,137 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    If taken before the murder, strange Sophie never mentioned it to anyone.

    If taken after the murder, makes the Garda preservation of the scene even more dodgy.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭EdHoven


    Anyone following IKB on Twitter? A nemesis troll of his has died. I won't post the name but it's easy enough to find the recent death in that area. I'm not sure if he was a detective or if IKB was using "dick" in another sense. Bit odd anyway, could be suicide.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    What I find curious is that assuming she did buy that discarded bottle of wine in the duty free, why did she buy a bottle of bubbly in a small supermarket in Schull which wouldn't have stocked the quality she (or any self respecting well-to-do French person) would expect? If she knew of the plans before leaving France, why would she not buy the Champers in the duty free at the same time as the wine?

    She must have had made plans with someone at very short notice i.e. when she arrived in Schull. As nobody has (to our knowledge) come forwards, this is likely to be a strong suspect for the killer. This would also rule out Bailey.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,137 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I think your main point stands regardless of the other bottle. IF the plans had been made in advance, reasonable to assume she'd have bought it in France, duty free or otherwise.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭EdHoven


    IKB says that champagne was not on the receipt from Sophie's shopping trip to Brosnan's Spar, Schull.

    I was curious about the Telegraph magazine photographed on the edge of Sophie's bath. EDIT I found it. It was 3rd February 1996 so presumably from a previous visit.


    Post edited by EdHoven on


  • Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭Mackinac


    Regards the magazine, do you have a photo of it? The Sunday Telegraph magazine was called ”Stella” whereas the magazine issued with the Saturday edition was called the The Telegraph Magazine.



  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭EdHoven




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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Has IKB said anything about the bottle of champers he was supposed to have seen on Sophie's kitchen table in his early newspaper articles?

    He blagged his way up to Alfie's with Leo Bolger a few days after the murder, but he couldn't have seen the kitchen table unless he passed across the front of Sophie's house. This is highly unlikely as the route to Alfie's would have taken them up the rear of the house, which had no windows at ground level. Anyway the crime scene photos had no such bottle of Champagne, which would have been taken before his visit to Alfie.



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