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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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    #19172
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,592 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063470#Comment_120063470

    the reference was obviously too obscure for some people....



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    #19173
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063493#Comment_120063493

    I know exactly who the reference was about, Syd; my point is that RB and Crowley are different players with different strength’s (and weaknesses).



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    #19174
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    If I were selecting for the Six Nations I would bring in Joey Carbery, Ross Byrne and Billy Burns.

    Let the younger lads play for their provinces; Jack Crowley, Ben Healy, Harry Byrne, Nathan Doak, Jake Flannery.

    I would have included Ciarán Frawley and David Hawkshaw in that list but I think they’ll both be out injured for another while.

    Jack Carty is just playing terribly at the moment, he has the ability to play well but perhaps injuries and a few bad matches have shattered his confidence, and he hasn’t put consistent good performances together yet this season.



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    #19175
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,592 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063504#Comment_120063504

    do you think ross byrne has less potential to create a try than Crowley?

    remember, crowley has the grand total of 8 professional starts at out half.....



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    #19176
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063504#Comment_120063504

    Do you think that RB can’t create try’s? If so I would suggest watching Leinster a bit more closely.

    He is definitely less likely to score one but in terms of getting his team in a position to score. As things stand I would say Byrne.

    That said I believe that Crowley will become Sextons successor. He’s just a long way off that level at present and needs more time at 10 to advance.



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    #19177
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063515#Comment_120063515

    Doak is lucky to be getting Ulster caps at the minute never mind Ireland ones.



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    #19178
    Jump_In_Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063533#Comment_120063533

    Would you not like to see him playing 10 for Ulster if Billy Burns were brought in to Ireland camp?

    I think 10 would suit him better than 9, but he probably needs some games there to get into the swing of it.

    Jake Flannery never got enough game time with Munster so I don’t know if he could be good with a couple of games.



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    #19179
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,829 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063549#Comment_120063549

    Flannery is not in this conversation at all, I think he was a hail mary cheap signing for Ulster and it hasn't worked out. I suspect he will never make it as a pro player.

    Doak at 10 is worth a try, but Ulster are short at 9.



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    #19180
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063527#Comment_120063527

    Do you think that RB can’t create try’s? 

    Do you really think this was my argument?

    As for this:

    If so I would suggest watching Leinster a bit more closely.

    C’mon, stephen… you’re better than that.

    There’s a level of snark entering the conversation purely because some of us would prefer to see Crowley ahead of Ross Byrne.

    A position that, in the Autumn, Andy Farrell agreed with.



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    #19181
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,592 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063575#Comment_120063575

    id prefer to see crowley fulfill his potential, but thats all he has currently, potential.

    Ross Byrne is where he is.

    so its a case of preferring the devil you know than the devil you dont. The reference to JJ Hanrahan earlier is a very valid comparison. The potential was huge with JJ, the reality was a crushing disappointment.



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    #19182
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063575#Comment_120063575

    There’s a level of snark entering the conversation purely because some of us would prefer to see Crowley ahead of Ross Byrne.

    A position that, in the Autumn, Andy Farrell agreed with.

    There is that and while I really don't care who 3rd choice is I have previously posted showing that Farrell has already picked one over the other when both were fit and available.



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    #19183
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    If Crowley can get Munster / Ireland playing with the same organised continuity that Ross Byrne can get Leinster playing with - then with the rest of his skill set he will be a huge asset to both province and country.

    Right now - I'm firmly of the opinion that Ross Byrne is by quite a wide margin the better game manager, gets more from his backline and provides better direction for his pack. He is better at managing territory, kicking from hand and his kicking percentage is far higher with many more kicks taken.

    It's also exceedingly apparent that Andy Farrell doesn't like what he sees. Whether that's down to his general play, some specific deficiency or how well he fits in camp I don't know, but he's been overlooked continuously and only got a shot against Australia because we were in a break glass situation.

    If I had no context, hadn't seen historical selections for Ireland and had been watching both players for their provinces this season and was asked which one would be called into camp - I'd be picking Byrne without thinking twice.

    I've no issue that this would be completely wrong and I fully accept that Farrell knows infinitely better - but being as objective as possible it's still a bit of a head scratcher.

    Edit: On a side note - I felt very much the same when Harry Byrne was getting picked ahead of Ross Byrne.



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    #19184
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063609#Comment_120063609

    It is, and it’s also entirely valid to point out Crowley has better footwork, is faster and threatens the line more than RB.

    And in that regard, Crowley suits Ireland’s style better.



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    #19185
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    All very interesting.

    Sam Prendergast is, of course, going to start against Wales but it's all very interesting.



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    #19186
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063575#Comment_120063575
    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063470#Comment_120063470

    Ok the less snarky version. Why would you want that? What exactly has Crowley shown so far in top level rugby that would suggest this. Because there is plenty of evidence of RB doing it at a top level.

    As I said, I’m a big fan of Crowley and have since his time with the under 20’s thought he had the potential to be Sextons replacement. At the moment though, it is potential. As we have seen nothing yet to say that he can do it at a top level.



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    #19187
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,592 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063651#Comment_120063651

    we've gone back to 12 o clock again :D

    i agree with you, crowley has the better individual traits than Byrne, however in the one piece of evidence where we can actually point to as being the basis of this argument (playing out half for ireland) he didn't exactly shine. Im not going to nit pick the young lads debut start, but lets say it was serviceable. Similarly Ross Byrnes starts for ireland have been poor.

    for the argument that Crowley was selected ahead of Byrne against australia when both were fit, yes absolutely. Thats patently correct.

    but lets not forget that Byrne was only called into the squad 4 days before the game. Crowley was the only fit outhalf who had been with the squad since the beginning of the preparations for the autumn internationals.... and Crowley had played against Fiki a week earlier, so was it such a surprise that Crowley was selected ahead of Ross Byrne?


    I expect both players will be called into the ireland training camp for the 6 nations. If Ross Byrne is not called in but either Harry / Jack / Billy are called in ahead of him, then thats his international prospects absolutely over.



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    #19188
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063753#Comment_120063753

    but lets not forget that Byrne was only called into the squad 4 days before the game.

    Is it overly simplistic to point out Crowley was there because he was the one preferred in the first place?


    I think one thing we can all agree on is that this is just going around in circles at this point, so happy to leave it there tbh.



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    #19189
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I wonder why was Crowley in the squad but Byrne had to be called up when we Sexton & Carbery were out.


    Could it possibly be that Farrell has Crowley ahead of Byrne



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    #19190
    AdamD
    Registered Users Posts: 12,631 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063842#Comment_120063842

    And nobody in this thread has said otherwise...



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    #19191
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063842#Comment_120063842

    It's possible, but not definite. Crowley was in the squad after Frawley got hurt in the NZ A game, as the third out half in a developmental role, similar to how Harry Byrne or Ciaran Frawley were there previously.

    It might be the case that that definitely means those three guys are indisputably ahead of the three established OHs who haven't really featured much (RB, Carty & Billy Burns), but we don't know for sure if they're there as developmental players at this juncture because Farrell likes their long term potential or if he rates them higher right now.

    I don't necessarily know if Farrell knew he'd be without Sexton & Carbery for the Australia game if Crowley would have been the guy he'd have gone with if he'd had longer to prepare for the fixture.



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    #19192
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063835#Comment_120063835

    On the balance of probabilities he's obviously the preferred one full stop, but that doesn't rule out him being there for longer term development purposes more so than an intention to start him in one of the main fixtures.

    Had Farrell been in a situation of having known two weeks in advance he'd need a starter other than Sexton or Carbery there is a small argument he might have gone a different way, but it's pure speculation and not worth anything beyond that.



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    #19193
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063874#Comment_120063874
    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063910#Comment_120063910

    Ok, we can speculate whether Crowley was picked for development purposes or not.

    But one thing we don’t need to speculate on is that Farrell has consistently not picked RB.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


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    #19194
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,317 ✭✭✭✭phog


    2022 Outhalves on match day squads

    6Ns Games (Starter/Bench)

    Sexton/Carbery

    Carbery/Carty

    Carbery/Sexton

    Sexton/Carbery

    Sexton/Carbey

    Summer Tour

    NZM Frawley/Carbery

    NZ Sexton/Carbery

    NZ Sexton/Carbey

    NZM Frawly/Carbery

    NZ Sexton/Carbery

    AIs

    Sexton/Carbery

    Carbery/Crowley

    Crowley/Byrne


    I think that gives you a view of the pecking order from Andy Farrell's point of view.



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    #19195
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063933#Comment_120063933
    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063982#Comment_120063982

    Pretty much absolutely everyone is saying that Farrell hasn't and doesn't pick Ross Byrne. It's quite literally the point we're all making. The discussion is around the why and a comparison to his and Crowley's prior performances.

    Had forgotten Carty got picked in last years Six Nations. Think he's a long way off now unfortunately, has had a poor season.



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    #19196
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063835#Comment_120063835

    Preferred as 3rd choice though. As Harry Byrne had been before him. He also most likely wouldn’t be there had Frawley not got injured against NZ. He is there for future benefit. Which put him in pole position once Sexton and Carberry were unavailable.

    There is also a possibility that should Sexton miss the 6N. That Crowley will remain 3rd choice with another outhalf coming in as second choice.



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    #19197
    Crash
    Registered Users Posts: 11,196 ✭✭✭✭Crash


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063434#Comment_120063434

    I missed the Beaver reference at first, assuming this is "who is our Stephen Donald?" right?

    In which case, it's absolutely RB in my head - a seasoned pro who knows how to score points, and marshall his team. Lacks some of the attributes that make him a top player, but i'd still feel more comfortable going into a match like that with RB on the bench, if we were missing Sexton.



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    #19198
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 6,005 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064126#Comment_120064126

    But what's his white baiting skills like? That's the most important thing. And RB will need to work on his beer belly if he really wants to be the Irish Beaver.



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    #19199
    Lil Fred
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Lil Fred


    Madigan is only 33. He’s still in with a shout if the chips fall his way and there are a few injuries



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    #19200
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,592 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064286#Comment_120064286

    Madigan has started 2 games between this season and last ..... and hes only started 38% of his games for ulster

    hes a far away from a test cap as I am.



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    #19201
    Dubinusa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,573 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Madigan will be gone after this season. Healy is Edinburgh bound. If Sexton is out, Carberry should start! He's been in the squad for yonks. He knows the systems etc.

    Crowley and HB are wildcards. They could both see action in the 6nations. They both gave high ceilings and look like good options, for the future.

    Frawley has lost his opportunity. It's a shame and I cansee him getting a call up. He'll likely be hoping for a chance in the world cup warm ups.



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