Female national record by trans athlete

Spanish Eyes · 04-01-2023 2:35pm

Self ID means that hormonal treatment and gender reassignment are not necessary. Just rock up and say you are a woman, and bingo yes, sign here and get a new birth certificate and passport my dear.

It is all total fantasy. A lot of this trans stuff is the result of a herd mentality and often comes from those who have autism. I think it is hatred of women which is contradictory, but many radical trans want to get into women's spaces and intimidate them. But if anyone questions the daftness of all this they are called TERF. No debate is receding.

Strange that transmen don't seem to have the same anger/dominance/superior issues as transwomen isn't it?

The tide is turning. If people want to change gender that's no problem. They cannot change their sex though. It's the Y chromosome you see. That cannot be excised.

average_runner · 04-01-2023 2:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120063816#Comment_120063816

There is already trans categories in the major marathons and the America utlras

average_runner · 04-01-2023 2:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064020#Comment_120064020

Really listen to a few good podcasts. Rugby won't allow trans women in women's rugby as they did a study and showed they can hit alot harder, so its a danger.

There is science proof that after hromones treatment, men that become a woman still retain the benefits of a man in peformance.

For example one of the studies said a 2:05 male marathon runner, would run 2:10 if they change sex.

The USA trans swimmer times only showed a 10% deficit in his previous pb's!!!!!

Ceepo · 04-01-2023 3:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064020#Comment_120064020

"Trans Women are Women. It's not a fantasy.

Well if a man is a man and happy with his male parts then yes he will never become a Woman but if someone is born with the wrong parts in the wrong body and they know this be it a woman in a male body or a man in a female body then yes they are a Woman or a Man just with the wrong body parts and they might have lived as they thought society expected them to live untill they do not have to anymore and can live as there true authentic self."

I'm not suggesting that gender dysphoria is not a reality for some people and I'm sure it can cause a multitude of issues for them. However if someone is born male and lives past puberty then the will have benefited physiologically from all the male hormone that goes with it, (average 30% strength and 12% speed) whether that individual believes they're in the wrong body or not. It also doesn't matter where they place in a competition, if they have gained an unfair advantage over there competitors, its still unfair.!

As I said previously, I'm happy for them to live their lives what ever way the choose. This isn't about how they are included in general society but about how they're included in a sporting context and the fairness around that.

I don't think anyone would disagree that women have the right take part in sports. (and rightly so) And if we agree they should take part, then in order to afforded them the chance to be competitive and have a chance of winning, they need to have their own separate women's category. It shouldn't be about whether transgender are allowed to take part in sport either more is it right to allow someone who has gained the advantageous physiology benefits of male puberty compete against someone who hasn't.

We (general term) need to take into account that the very fact of including transgender women in sport we risk excluding other women from taking part. An example of this is where there's qualification process.. Say 6 to qualify for a final then the 7th place missed out, same for semi final, quarter final etc etc.

babacool · 04-01-2023 7:07pm

I “love” how some here say “I have no issue with them. Everyone to their own BUT…” not realising the moment the but kicks in one can basically disregard what’s been said before.

my take on this one is: “if I was the national record holder, I would be pissed off by anyone snatching that away and yes I would probably be extremely pissed off if that Person has an advantage that I don’t have”. At least that would be the initial reaction. What comes after depends on how that Person acts. If she is now celebrating it as a massive accomplishment and like “im the greatest runner ever” then yes I can understand everyone who thinks negatively about that.

if she does not really celebrate it and perhaps even says “don’t add me to the record books” then honestly i have no issue with that. It is what it is and it just means I have to work harder.

i mean what is she supposed to do? She clearly has joy in running and performing. Should she stop running just because she wants to be seen as a woman? should she be forced to enter as a male just because a minority has an issue with her being a she? Let’s just enjoy the show regardless of who performs. I like the whole open Race theory. Let’s put away with all this gender shite. Let’s compete all together and if you still want thinks broken down, break it down.

look at DCM. we have overall winners and rankings. Then we break it down by gender. Than further by age group. And even the age group we break down in so many parts. No harm in adding even more to that. Still means everyone is treated equally! And you can still have your pure gender records. It just depends at what level you add the gender breakdown.

either way, if you pro or con always consider: how would she feel if she reads this? Scared? Ashamed? Supported?

now “attack” me if you like. Don’t care 😁

Murph_D · 04-01-2023 7:51pm

@AMKC wrote:

It's TERF Territory. Are you a TERF?

More a situation-specific TE. You don't need to be a RF to be in favour of protecting the women's sports by excluding trans. It's a question of integrity, safety and fairness, as many have said.

Jarhead_Tendler · 04-01-2023 7:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120060797#Comment_120060797

That is cock n bull

AMKC · 04-01-2023 8:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065950#Comment_120065950

Actually it's Cullin Cock lol.

Ceepo · 04-01-2023 8:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065780#Comment_120065780

A lot to unpack here.

I personally think you have to differentiate between sporting and socially. In Society, no issue whatsoever, but I would have in a sports context for the reason outlined, fairness and safety for a start.

You say you would extremely pissed of if they had an advantage you didn't. Well that's the reality for women that compete against them.

"Let’s put away with all this gender shite. Let’s compete all together and if you still want thinks broken down, break it down." Isn't this what's happening at present outside of mass participation runnning events. For track and field you have to narrow down the fields for logistical reasons. So how would you propose they do that if not by gender? And at a masters level age and gender categories.

babacool · 06-01-2023 12:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066202#Comment_120066202

yea, you see... that's what i don't like about those discussions. you take one part and disregard what came after. so to complete my statement again "At least that would be the initial reaction. What comes after depends on how that Person acts." - I was pissed of at runners in 2019 when they wore them nikes and I didn't. Pissed of for the first 5min especially since some thought they were the greatest athletes in the whole world now. Don't want to start a shoe discussion now ;). Just showing that there is always a reason to be pissed off about something. But like I said its the "what happens next" that defines my personal opinion. And if those having an advantage or not by changing the gender - I am not a scientist. I cannot confirm or deny that. I am certain there are studies out there, that will confirm that but I am also certain there are studies which will deny that.

With regards to the categories, i sure agree it is hard to break it down but in the end it is needed if who really want something that is fair and works for everyone and not just some. Open field = everyone is equal. You want to have it "fair" and that you only compete against those like you (whatever that means then), you break it down. It isn't really that much different to Paralympics is it? You just need to classify and categories. It will involve a lot of effort and won't be easy to do but it will take away this whole "unfairness" discussion.

Oh and i never said "don't do it by gender" - read or quote it correctly please! I said "Then we break it down by gender. Than further by age group. And even the age group we break down in so many parts. No harm in adding even more to that. Still means everyone is treated equally! And you can still have your pure gender records. It just depends at what level you add the gender breakdown."

How would I break it down? I don't know and I don't need to know as I don't moan about "unfairness". But best would be in that order:

Open Race
Men/Women (including TransGender)
TransGender (Men to Women, Women to Men)/Women/Men
Women Age Groups/ Men Age Groups/ TransGender Age Groups
Whatever other level you can think of.

Like I said, I like a discussion and i can understand those against and those pro to it. All I am not getting is this "attacking" someone. Sure there are definitely some who might just go through all that transition just in order to compete and win something. But lets face it, the majority does it for no other reason than feeling happy with themselves.

Lazare · 06-01-2023 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120065937#Comment_120065937

This whole argument (don't mean this thread, generally) is a sh1tshow.

What I find interesting when this TERF nonsense is thrown at people defending women's sports is the fact that Trans men are welcome to compete.

tastyt · 06-01-2023 2:49pm

Its absolute nonsense and the people most against this are women who are competing and involved in these sports . Years of training and sacrifice to be the best only to be taken away by a male athlete who has decided they are now a woman and has taken a few hormones .

Its the Karens that need to be seen fighting the cause that are for this , no level headed person that has ever been involved in sport .

Its brilliant and refreshing to see high profile female athletes like Sharon Davies and Sonia O Sullivan call out this nonsense for what it is and not bow to the intimidation

Ceepo · 06-01-2023 8:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120073264#Comment_120073264

I get what your saying and wasn't deliberately cherry picking.

Maybe I should have a little clearer. This is the way I read your post. You say your personal response initially would be extremely pissed off. But then it might change a bit depending on the the person actions "greatest runner" comment.

I'd make the point that in the transgender case you simply cannot look at it that way, where a nice reaction or person is treated differently. There has to be a clear defined line of what is and isn't allowed.

That's why I said in a previous post that it doesn't matter what time they run position they finish in.

I and i never said "don't do it by gender" - read or quote it correctly please!

I never said you did😉

I quoted this "Let’s put away with all this gender shite. Let’s compete all together and if you still want thinks broken down, break it down."

And I responded with "Isn't this what's happening at present outside of mass participation runnning events. For track and field you have to narrow down the fields for logistical reasons. So how would you propose they do that if not by gender? And at a masters level age and gender categories.

So outside of open race such as marathons or road race, all other track and field events are in categories devided by gender, first and foremost, then sub categories ie age or as you said para Olympics. So you simple away "put away all this gender shite"

As was mentioned by another poster some of the major marathons now a "non binery" section and have prize money for that section. Which is a progressive move by them. However my understanding at the moment is they aren't eligible for overall prizes. (could be wrong here).

Maybe having a specific trans section is the way forward, however there is a difference between having non binary section and having a specific Trans section. In that trans athletes are campaigning to compete in the category they see themselves as. In the specific case. A woman, and as such wants to run in the women's section.

We'll leave the shoes out of it 😉😂

Enduro · 23-03-2023 7:10pm

Seb Coe and world Athletics now making some big definitive calls on this issue. Good to see fairness in the Female Category being prioritised.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/mar/23/world-athletics-council-excludes-transgender-women-from-female-events

Larbre34 · 23-03-2023 9:00pm

Its good that the WAC have come out so definitively on this matter, albeit a little late.

Women need to be protected physically and competitively across the sporting spectrum.

Ceepo · 23-03-2023 9:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392951#Comment_120392951

I seen this earlier.

It follows in from British athletics last month looking for a change in the law to allow transgender to complete in male category.

https://news.sky.com/story/british-athletics-call-for-transgender-women-to-compete-with-men-in-open-category-12802284?authId=1*2csy0v*_a*TWFjQ1RNUGI0aTA5cFFXTVVCSEhZVC1HSllWOFZEdUdQVGw1MWM2RjVaLVFuVHc2RmlPWTdETHdYWnN6SlY1UA..

The article states that it's for elite athletes, I hope it will filter down to all categories.

Ceepo · 24-03-2023 9:01am

https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1639004509245677576?t=d6cjT6EN0-uaaNQ5qH37_w&s=19

Good point raised by Ross Tucker.

"is not science, they knew it years ago, I'm sure it's part of it, but real change here came when women's athletes refused to be ignored anymore"

whatnext · 24-03-2023 9:20am

I know very little about the trans issue and being quite honest care very little about it as it hasn’t impacted me in any way in my life to date. However having read a number of threads here on the topic and particular the arguments in favour of integrating trans women into womens sport my opinion is that trans women should have a category in para sports. The argument seems to be that trans peoples brain is in conflict with their body and that it is not an mental or psychological issue and therefore by default is a physical issue. So should there be a Paralympic category for trans athletes?

I’m only stating an opinion. It may be politically incorrect, I honestly don’t know. But does the opinion warrant a discussion?

average_runner · 24-03-2023 9:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394522#Comment_120394522

While I do believe there should be their own category in the olympics and not para olympics, i think saying they have a physical issue is not correct.

Ross Tucker was very good on this and got alot of abuse over it. But the one thing that stood out for me in what he said "Inclusion is exclusion"

Ceepo · 24-03-2023 12:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394522#Comment_120394522

I get what you're saying but the way I see it is this

Trans women (biological male) see themselves as women and want society to see them and accept as women. They don't want to be excluded from society or sport on that basis. So I don't see that they would even consider their own category in the special Olympics. They are arguments lie around being included in all aspects of life as they see themselves. Yes they are a minority in society, but does that give them the right to be included in sports at the exclusion of someone else.

Female national record by trans athlete

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