Roderic O’G: Transgender issues added to primary curriculum

Gregor Samsa · 05-01-2023 5:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069743#Comment_120069743

When were you in primary school? I know that when I was there in the late 70s and early 80s, almost all the insults kids hurled at each-other were based on sexuality - fag, homo, etc. And yes, this started when we were 6 or 7, and we had at least a rudimentary understanding of the meanings - they weren't just sounds. And I've had plenty of conversations about it over the years with peers from around the country (and even some other countries) and they all had the same experience.

It certainly wasn't this idyllic paradise where sexuality didn't exist in our innocent minds. Thankfully it's changed significantly now.

05-01-2023 5:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069807#Comment_120069807

It was the 80s for me,

I certainly do not recall the words fag etc until secondary school, but even then the words were only used as a form of insult, that had no bearing or was being directed to actually attack someone because of their sexuality, no different than calling someone a bastard, it didn't mean we were actually suggesting someone didn't have a father.

I still remember the sex ed class we had, Watched it didn't understand it much, and left it at that.

Sexuality grew with us as we started puberty, we discovered feelings and attractions.

jb88 · 05-01-2023 5:21pm

I wouldnt think it would have been relevant in 1980's Ireland in primary school, in my time. maybe its relevant now if you live in Comifornia.

People say awareness helps, well not knowing about this if you are a child is hardly going to inhibit them in any way.

Outside of that not sure if Primary school is a place to learn those things. Its a lot easier at least in my house to discuss around the dinner table.

Do what you do in the way that you do it best, for those with these requirements.

Its a bit much to be having debates over the subject at primary school level.

Its time enough for kids to be kids in Primary school. Save this till secondary school.

05-01-2023 5:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069761#Comment_120069761

I think the effort to define what is "normal" is drifting away from what this topic is discussing. I have my own health conditions, (as do many of us) Is it normal? Not for my age, no. Do I see it as a normal part of my life? Absolutely.

Anyway, I'm sure we can get back to the big fears of telling children that some people are born into the wrong body, and why we should never, ever tell them that in case we end up treating trans people with a bit of dignity or equality. Same way we should never discuss body dysmorphia with teenagers in case it leads them to anorexia. Or heaven forbid we stop making people with webbed toes out to be complete abnormal, and why it's a good thing for people with webbed feet to know just how abnormal and different they are. I'm sure they need reminding.

Ireland, never change.

Wibbs · 05-01-2023 5:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120068266#Comment_120068266

Homosexuality was common in ancient Greece and Rome, only with the rise of Abrahamic religions was this suppressed, transgenderism the same.

Eh no. I'd pick a different example if I were you. The "Greeks invented the Gay" stuff pulled out as an argument(interestingly pointed to by both the Right and Right on for very different reasons) is beyond bogus. Adult male homosexuality was very much frowned upon even during more permissive periods(Lesbians were barely mentioned). Where Gay relationships existed it was most commonly pederasty. Older man, pubescent boy. Not exactly something we'd be too keen on these days, though even here at various periods sexual contact was frowned upon. The ideal being "Platonic love". In Rome that was frowned upon too.

About the lowest of the low of any citizen in both cultures and throughout different periods was any man who was the passive partner. It made him a "woman" in the eyes of those extremely patriarchal culture. The city state of Athens made Saudi Arabia look like a bastion of feminism. It also made him a social outcast, because the passive partners were to be found among criminals, sex workers and slaves. It's one of the most common and barbed insults found in plays, histories and even graffiti.

As for Trans, while both Greeks and Romans had some respect at a distance for more male acting women, Amazons and the like, it was hardly mainstream. Going the other way, again because women were seen as lesser creatures, any man taking on womanly aspects was majorly beyond the pale.

I realise it's dead fashionable to claim it, that somehow the Pagans were more permissive and it's all the Christians fault, but it's a total nonsense. The rise of Christianity had pretty much nothing to do with these attitudes, they had long existed in the Classical world, Christianity just popped on top in an easy fit and removed the kinda OK men shagging male slaves part.

Gregor Samsa · 05-01-2023 5:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069827#Comment_120069827

Of course most of the time it wasn't making a serious suggestion that the target was gay (although that did happen too) or that their mother was unmarried, but the power of an insulting work like that is the belief that it is labeling someone as something abhorrent. It was the fact that homosexuality (or being born out of wedlock) was scorned at the time that meant that the words were used as insults in the first place. The words only worked as insults because the meaning was known and understood. And they were certainly known and understood by primary school children when and where I was growing up.

Guess_Who · 05-01-2023 5:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069837#Comment_120069837

People are not born into the wrong bodies!

THAT is not true.

A very small percentage of people may feel they are, but they are not typical/not the norm.

Nobody is advocating that the small few who do feel like that be pilloried for it, but by teaching impressionable children that it's perfectly normal to feel like that is dishonest at best.

circadian · 05-01-2023 5:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069538#Comment_120069538

Yes, it might actually bring to light an issue earlier rather than suppressing it with problems further down the line.

Yes, it's unusual but there's often a rational explanation for it (not inbreeding). It's certainly something that should be highlighted as weird or stigmatised.

Again, yes, it's normal to have these feelings. Many people do. See point one, acknowledging it is the first step in remedying it. Stigmatising things only leads to kids/teenagers hiding themselves and creating bigger issue.

05-01-2023 5:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069874#Comment_120069874

Have you ever actually talked face to face with a transgender individual?

Fandymo · 05-01-2023 5:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069712#Comment_120069712

So you are annoyed that the word freak is used in it's proper context? Something that is not normal.

Freak wave, freak accident, freak weather occurrence.

circadian · 05-01-2023 5:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069743#Comment_120069743

How is discussing gender sexualising children? Children already recognise boys and girls. Is that sexual or are you the one that immediately thinks it's sexual when it's actually just discussing genders?

Guess_Who · 05-01-2023 5:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069893#Comment_120069893

I have.

What has that got to do with anything?

crusd · 05-01-2023 5:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069719#Comment_120069719

All your points are pure false equivalence.

You are saying acknowledging that there are a tiny number of people who have 6 fingers is the exact same as forcing everyone to wear to wear 6 fingered gloves because of the few who need them. Like as if talking about the existence of trans issues is somehow mandating that children must adopt trans identity.

Why are you so afraid of information?

05-01-2023 5:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069906#Comment_120069906

We're discussing transgender individuals, and you have some very strong beliefs in what they are, that's why I bring it up...

How do you think these people feel, when you insist they should remain what they were born as?

crusd · 05-01-2023 5:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069743#Comment_120069743

Identity and sexualisation are not the same thing. That you believe they are is concerning.

Guess_Who · 05-01-2023 5:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069918#Comment_120069918

Its absolutely not a false equivalence.

It is the same as saying that 6 finger gloves are as normal as 5 fingered gloves and if you think differently you are intolerant.

Trans people exist, they are not typical and it is exceptionally unusual to feel that way.

Also, how can you teach children about the concept of gender? By the very concept of gender, there are an infinite amount so any child can identify as a unicorn/princess and it would needed to be treated with the same level of sincerity as a primary schoolgirl feeling like they are a schoolboy.

The very fact that it is being normalised to children is bizarre.

Proven and factual biology, at a primary level should be taught to children. Not some gender ideology that has absolutely no rules.

.

crusd · 05-01-2023 5:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069761#Comment_120069761

Normal includes variation. Not average.

Guess_Who · 05-01-2023 5:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069919#Comment_120069919

Because it is reality. Not my reality. Reality.

They can get whatever surgery they want to make them feel more comfortable, but nothing will change their sex.

(I assume we are talking MtF and FtM)

crusd · 05-01-2023 5:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069936#Comment_120069936

6 fingered gloves are normal for people with 6 fingers. How is that such a difficult concept?

Will leave the Helen Lovejoy's to your 1950's reality where no one should talk about anything difficult anywhere ever i think.

Guess_Who · 05-01-2023 5:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069973#Comment_120069973

It's not a difficult concept. It's just wrong.

Even people with six fingers will recognise it is unusual for places to stock 6 fingered gloves. It's a requirement and it suits them, but they will realise that it isn't normal.

I live in a 1950's reality where I want primary school children to be taught that that boys are boys and girls are girls?

Jesus. I'd take that rather than your dystopia where its absolutely normal to be a six fingered, web footed, pansexual, transman furry.

And again, "won't someone think of the children" is not the insult you think it is.

05-01-2023 5:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069936#Comment_120069936

You understand that unicorn and princess are not genders...?

05-01-2023 5:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069905#Comment_120069905

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069921#Comment_120069921

Children do not need to be told who they are, we all discovered that ourselves.

You both seem to think, if I tell a child it's ok to be Trans then they can grow up to be trans, I am confident that hardly any children if any below the age of 12 are worried about being Trans, Straight or gay.

This is all about the sexualization of children, start introducing what many would call perverted or abnormal behaviours and it will follow with more and more of this kind of thing.

It's all about indoctrinating children.

The UK is way ahead of us

A landmark ruling last year means that UK schools will finally be teaching LGBT+ inclusive sex education.

The ruling made inclusive relationship and sex education compulsory in all schools in England, with all schools being given until the summer of 2021 to make good on their word.

https://gcn.ie/lgbt-sex-education-taught-uk-schools/

Guess_Who · 05-01-2023 6:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120070001#Comment_120070001

How many genders are there?

Or are you conflating sex and gender?

Because if you are only talking about male and female, this conversation is much easier.

05-01-2023 6:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120070006#Comment_120070006

"Primary school students will be taught about different family models, while secondary school students will receive information about different sexual orientations and gender identities."

You think this is a bad thing? It's age appropriate and inclusive.

05-01-2023 6:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120070026#Comment_120070026

Have you read my posts on this thread? I offered my opinion on that already. Out of interest, how many genders do you think there are? How many sexes do you think there are?

tayto lover · 05-01-2023 6:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120066773#Comment_120066773

I didn't mention religion. I said that children don't need this in Primary school. Let them enjoy their childhood without this bollocks. They'll have plenty of time for that later when they have time to formulate their own opinions around it. They are not doing sex education at 11 years around here.

astrofool · 05-01-2023 6:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069693#Comment_120069693

Yep, though I'd imagine it would be incorporated into existing parts of the curriculum (if it does end up happening) so will be a small part of that lesson plan.

Annasopra · 05-01-2023 6:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120070006#Comment_120070006

Why dont children need to be told who they are? Thats very odd.

Indoctrination, perversion... days it all about your attitudes.

deirdremf · 05-01-2023 6:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120064636#Comment_120064636

In your opinion, in specific terms - what do kids need to know about sex overall and about transgenderism in particular, and what should they learn at which ages?

TomTomTim · 05-01-2023 6:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069942#Comment_120069942

"an established standard or average: as. : a set standard of development or achievement usually derived from the average or median achievement of a large group. : a pattern or trait taken to be typical in the behavior of a social group"

" according with, constituting, or not deviating from a norm, rule, procedure, or principle"

" not exhibiting defect or irregularity"

"within a range considered safe, healthy, or optimal"

I could use a hundred definitions from different sites to prove my point, yet there's no point is there? What you think is true is true, no matter what reality says. Ironically, you're fighting against norms by trying to change the definition of normal. But that's just it isn't it? It's only big rebellion against all orthodoxy, no matter how dangerous it may be.

Roderic O’G: Transgender issues added to primary curriculum

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