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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So, just to be clear here, are you calling Jonathan Sexton (nominated for World Rugby Player of the Year in 2022) a washed up player?

    Also; clarify for us please who are the up & coming stars who aren't getting selected?



  • Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭phily2002


    He's our best 10 by a country mile. It's not so much we rely on him as the drop off when he's not there is huge.

    We can chose to not play him in the hope someone else turns into a world class 10 but he's missed a lot of games and no ones stepped up and demanded the Jersey.

    The coaches have backed Joey and he'll get plenty of minutes but he's not on Sexton level and that's unlikely to change before the world Cup.

    Should we drop Furlong, Porter, Beirne, VDF, Dorris, Ringrose?

    We rely on them as well....



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,594 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    the dunning kruger effect is mightily strong here.....



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Then I guess we aren't winning the world cup then.

    Have you seen the run-in to the final? He ain't making it through the QF

    Assuming he's rested for the first 2 games against lower tier opposition (which is in itself an assumption) Sexton would need to play South Africa, Scotland, NZ/France, and then the winners of the 0ther QF and the final all back to back as a 38 year old out half that every other team knows is our most vulnerable position.

    Its not gonna happen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭phily2002




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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,359 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Don’t all teams in all sports rely on their best players?



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    We adjust our gameplan and bring in players who are more durable and give them game-time in the few remaining games prior to the RWC in September.

    We can do this while allowing Sexton to properly recover from his broken cheekbone and not risk further injury

    Sexton should absolutely play a role in the RWC if he's fit. But he should not be the only player who has any proper minutes against competitive sides



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    What up and coming stars were left behind in 2019?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Carbery has plenty of minutes against competitive sides and is quite obviously the back up.

    Also, Farrell quite clearly has adjusted the gameplan to be less reliant on the 10 position. It doesn't matter what the gameplan is, Sexton will still be the best at implementing it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You should sent your CV in to Lansdowne Road and tout your credentials for Andy Farrell's gig since you've got it all worked out so well clearly.

    In the last couple of days alone you've come up with the amazing, strategic insight of: (i) potentially assuming Jonathan Sexton might not be fit enough to play against Wales (AF and his coaches would never have thought of that), and (ii) Instead of picking our greatest ever (and still by some distance our current best) out half we drop him for a more durable player.

    *chef's kiss* I'm sure it's just a hilarious coincidence that the guy you have a problem with in both instances happens to be Johnny Sexton.

    Edit: final q: Is Joey Carbery more durable than Johnny Sexton?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Rugby is an attritional game. The RWC is a unique tournament where there are 7 matches back to back with only 1 rest week that, in irelands case, increase in intensity week on week

    For context, the Heineken Cup knockouts are 4 games spread out over 2 months

    The 6 Nations are 5 games with a rest period and no knockout stages

    Every team wants to play their best players, but the RWC is a marathon, not a sprint. To win the RWC you need to have as many of your best players fit for the final as you can, and this means you need to have depth in your squad so that you can rest them or allow them to recover from knocks picked up in earlier stages of the tournament.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    We'll see if Sexton is fit in a few weeks.

    I don't think Carbery's injury profile justifies him being 'the' Sexton backup. We need at least one more out half who is up to speed

    I think there's a 50% chance Sexton isn't travelling to the RWC at all due to injury. AF has the choice to risking playing him in the warm-ups, or bringing him in cold and warming him up against Romania and Tonga. Neither are particularly encouraging options

    Nor is dropping him in against South Africa having not played any competitive rugby in several months



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,594 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Edit: final q: Is Joey Carbery more durable than Johnny Sexton?


    absolutely not !!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah, there's a really good chance Sexton won't be fit in a few weeks, no one is suggesting otherwise. The only news around this has been that the injury isn't as severe as originally thought so there's a chance he might be healthy for the start of the 6N.

    The Irish coaching team have much better insight on this than you as they've direct access to the player and all the medical data.

    Who do you propose is Sexton's back up if not Carbery?

    It's clear there will be at least one more out half in the 6N squad, and it's likely to be Jack Crowley I would imagine. They aren't going to force feed him minutes or starts he hasn't earned, but at the same time, I'd imagine he'll have picked up some more caps before the RWC comes along.

    Guys like Crowley and Frawley have probably got a better shot at being the third 10 in the RWC squad because of their versatility and ability to cover multiple positions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    He was world player of the year in 2018 and didn't perform at the 2019 RWC

    He is also 37 and will be 38 years old by the time the RWC starts, with hundreds of hours of training and gametime between now and then... He's not washed up now (although he played rubbish against Connacht before he injured himself) but 9 months is a long time and players can decline rapidly.

    A lot can happen in the next 6 months before the RWC squad is announced



  • Registered Users Posts: 41 fitzgea1


    To be fair to you, we have made mistakes in past world cups of assuming players will be great because they've been great for so long. Age and minutes played does catch up with everyone eventually. But I think that's why Sexton needs to play in 6N, we need to see if he's still good enough and durable enough. Personally I think he will be but better to find out in 6N rather than at World Cup.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    The Sexton Paradox of never being fit and available, yet playing every match and preventing anyone else from getting experience.

    Sooner or later, Sexton is going to rip a hole in the space-time continuum.

    And as we're sucked into a swirling oblivion of nothingness, a load of boards.ie posters will be screaming "TOLD YOU WE SHOULD HAVE PICKED CROWLEYYYYYYYYYYY"



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,573 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I'm not keen on relying on a 38 year old out half. But the back up is not very good! He's played enough to gauge his talent and he's been disappointing. Yet, he starts for Munster and Crowley is played at center. This would probably reflect the coaches mindset on Crowley. He's not getting minutes at 10!

    There's no doubt that there's no other quality out halfs available. I think Crowley will be a good option in a couple of years.if Sextonmisses the world cup, we are fcuked.



  • Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭Redhighking


    He was durable enough to play three consecutive tests in the summer...



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    There's a rest week between South Africa and Scotland.


    It's not all back to back.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    There is some level of chance that he will stay fit for the entire tournament, or at least be fit for all the important games… and our hopes rest on that largely.

    Resting him for the south africa game would be one possible strategy to keep him healthy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭Redhighking


    Then came back and played the second and third - there are week breaks between the Scotland game, QF, SF and Final (granted this is one extra game) (Sexton does not have to play the SA game either).



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Does Sexton hog all the minutes or is he constantly injured? I find it hard to see how he can do both at once.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    whatever about debuts, i remember england making alot of changes throughout the 6Ns in 2003 and SA mixed up their team leading up to the 2007 rwc. didnt make a massive difference in terms of their starting teams (josh lewsey became englands FB from it though) but it did mean that they had massive strength in depth when injuries struck during the tournaments

    as for selecting the team a year before the tournament, while i dont advocate wholesale changes to the starting lineup there definitely is a precedent for not picking players on form and going with the status quo in previous tournaments. chris farrell was irelands best back in the last rwc (not saying much) but lost out as soon as the other options became available, conway and larmour similarly were playing well and lost out to kearney and stockdale who werent in any sort of form. 2007 was its own story and even in 2015 there was some bit of it (simon zebo). the funny thing is some people on here and other places also cry on about the fact that the team was changed up in 2011 (which was the right thing) so i suppose its impossible to please everyone



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Farrell as Ireland's best back in the last WC is the most bizarre statement made in an increasingly unhinged thread.

    Ringrose and Larmour were the standouts in the group stages.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,240 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    not really, he played very well in the (almost) two games he played and had done well in the warm ups. larmour was probably the only other back that did much in the pool stage and henshaw was okay against NZ once they had the game tied up. conway went well when given the chance too

    chris farrell being the best back was more down to the poor performances of the others than anything else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    I utterly disagree. He was mediocre at best and the most notable thing he did at the World Cup was run into Stander off the back of a scrum to give away an offside penalty.

    Very few players excelled at that WC. Farrell wasn't one of them. Larmour played well against Scotland and Ringrose against Japan. I can't think of any others.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,573 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    Don't worry boys, Furlong can switch to outhalf, in a pinch.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭phily2002


    Thought Conway was our best back followed by Larmour at the last World Cup. Kilcoyne and Ruddock were in good form as well. Joe had lost the plot though, he had his team and form didn't come into it



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