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Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,411 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Repeating something doesn't make it more true.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,411 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    I dont know why the principal is supervising and ,I suspect, neither do you. I'm sure there are concerns about him being in the building. that doesn't mean he is, or is likely to, cause fear.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,985 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    I quoted the legislation which you admitted you misread 5 minutes ago. 🤷‍♀️

    Your opinion is his presence is not likely to cause fear, which is your opinion.

    The law states that is up to a member of Gardaí to access if his trespass is likely to cause fear.

    Remember he doesn't have to cause fear.

    He is under constant security so he can't enter other parts of the school.

    Is that because they are afraid he will bring joy or fear?

    It's bonkers!



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,447 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    Haha, that doesn't mean religion is useful at all. Look at what people do in the name of religion. Tell me that is rational thinking.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Its classed as "fitness to teach". There are many cases of teachers being removed from the register for a multitude of reasons

    Having child porn images

    Threatening and intimidating staff

    Commiting fraud

    Theft

    Faking qualifications

    Affairs with students

    Sellotaping students mouths

    and so on

    "Fitness to teach" is very broad for this very reason and gives the teaching council wide scope as to what falls under it.

    Its likely he would be brought up on the basis of professional misconduct which is defined as;

    Disgraceful or dishonourable conduct either in the course of the registered teacher’s profession or otherwise than in the course of the registered teacher’s profession if the conduct is of such a serious nature as would bring the profession of teaching into disrepute

    There are other standards laid out by the council that he would fall foul under, specifically

    1. Professional Values and Relationships
    2. Professional Integrity
    3. Professional Conduct
    4. Professional Practice
    5. 6. Professional Collegiality and Collaboration

    These are laid out in the following teching council document


    Under values and relationships the following standards are required to be met which he failed

    • 1.2 acknowledge and respect the uniqueness, individuality and specific needs of pupils/ students and promote their holistic development
    • 1.3 be committed to equality and inclusion and to respecting and accommodating diversity including those differences arising from gender, civil status, family status, sexual orientation, religion, age, disability, race, ethnicity, membership of the Traveller commnity and socio-economic status, and any further grounds as may be referenced in equality legislation in the future
    • 1.4 seek to develop positive relationships with pupils/students, colleagues, parents, school management and others in the school community, that are characterised by professional integrity and judgement

    Under integrity, he would fall foul of the following

    • 2.5 avoid conflict between their professional work and private interests which could reasonably be deemed to impact negatively on pupils/students

    Under conduct he would also be challenged under the following standards

    • 3.1 uphold the reputation and standing of the profession
    • 3.2 take all reasonable steps in relation to the care of pupils/students under their supervision, so as to ensure their safety and welfare
    • 3.3 work within the framework of relevant legislation and regulations
    • 3.4 comply with agreed national and school policies, procedures and guidelines which aim to promote pupil/student education and welfare and child protection
    • 3.6 communicate effectively with pupils/students, colleagues, parents, school management and others in the school community in a manner that is professional, collaborative and supportive, and based on trust and respect
    • 3.7 ensure that any communication with pupils/ students, colleagues, parents, school management and others is appropriate, including communication via electronic media, such as e-mail, texting and social networking sites

    Under professional practice, he could be challenged under

    • 4.8 act in the best interest of pupils/students.

    Under professional Collegiality and Collaboration, the following would apply

    • 6.2 work in a collaborative manner with pupils/ students, parents/guardians, school management, other members of staff, relevant professionals and the wider school community, as appropriate, in seeking to effectively meet the needs of pupils/students

    So yeah, there is a clear case for the teaching council to get involved once the hearings with the school are completed. No doubt he would seek to also frustrate that process but as has been seen in previous cases, the courts defer to the teaching council to manage their profession and only block disciplinary hearings on points of law and I haven't seen any hearing which has been blocked on this basis though some have been delayed while the courts assessed the cases



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,876 ✭✭✭bokale


    Yes presumably the principal has concerns with him being in the building so is having to supervise him. What a mess.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I like to think of the current situation, him sitting in a classroom supervised by a peer, as him being in detention. Hopefully he is being made to do lines




  • Registered Users Posts: 40,411 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    he would certainly bring annoyance to many. Annoyance is not fear.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,975 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34




  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Interesting how THAT bit of Genesis isn't to be taken literally, but the bits that suit your position about God making a man and a women apparently ARE to be taken literally. How do you decide which bits of the Bible are to be taken literally?

    So God created people with free will, created the entire environment that they inhabit, created the people around them, but when people come to a belief that they're a bit different to others, those people are 'in error'? Are you saying now that every trans person since the beginning of civilisation is 'in error'? How about every gay person? How about every Muslim person?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I'm not championing Burke here, I think he's a woeful gobshyte, but technically Burke is turning up to school in order to teach. That's his claim anyway. My view is that he's turning up for attention, to provoke a reaction and to try become a martyr but I can't prove that. So essentially his claim that he is there to teach probably can't really be disproven.

    Yes, yes, yes, I know he's suspended but he's ignoring the suspension (and court order) and turning up to do his job. In those circumstances it would be very hard to prove that his actions are likely to cause fear in another person as he's just turning up to teach, just like every other teacher in the school...........except he is suspended.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,849 ✭✭✭growleaves


    I didn't say that God's making of a man and a woman was to be taken literally. I never mentioned Biblical literalism at all.

    I'm not playing 20 questions so I'll leave it there.

    I encourage you to follow up on your new interest in Christian metaphysics and theology through reading though.

    Enjoy your weekend



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,985 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Fear is a broad brush, distress, agitation, even annoyance, etc.

    But again not one single person who is lawfully allowed in that building has to admit feeling any of those.

    If his presence is likely to cause any of that and Guard makes that judgement, than that is crime under our laws.

    Again he is under constant security so he doesn't get to other workers and kids in the school.

    There is something up here, either the school have been abandoned or it is orchestrated to let him have more rope.

    But by any reasonable measurement, this has gone on far too long, the children's welfare should be paramount, time for the upper powers now to step in and arrest the díckhead.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,702 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    He has the courage of his convictions and it is an effective form of political protest. Though perhaps it might have been better for him personally to make his point outside the school grounds.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,411 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    distress, agitation and annoyance are not fear in any reasonable world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,985 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Of course there are, as in anxiety, apprehension, unease, etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,411 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Burke would absolutely love immediate dismissal. Because if the school don't follow every process to the letter of the law, Burke would challenge it and win.

    You can't immediatly dismiss anyone here in Ireland. You have to investigate any allegations of misconduct, interview witnesses, hear all sides fairly and then make a fair decision. There has to be time allowed for appeals etc. There's a very detailed process to be followed.

    I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here and I realise I'll get shot down for this but Burke is suspended for repeatedly shouting at the Principal at a school function. That is all he is suspended for. Nothing else. Would that be construed as gross misconduct here in Ireland? I'm not 100% sure. People are allowed to protest in a non-violent manner and Burke didn't assault or threaten to assault anyone. What he did may warrant disciplinary action but not necessarily dismissal.

    Bottom line, it isn't easy to dismiss someone here in Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,402 ✭✭✭Tork


    Why delay this until the summer? The school certainly doesn't seem to want to, given that they want to hold a disciplinary hearing on the 19th of this month. Everyone is in limbo for now and sending him back to jail is simply kicking the can down the road. It's a costly rerun of what happened last year and nothing will change. A decision on his employment status is key.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,985 ✭✭✭✭Boggles




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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,675 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    None of those examples match anything that Burke has done.

    Here are your examples again:

    Conviction for having child porn images - Burke isn't accused of this and hasn't even been arrested on any charge.

    Conviction for threatening and intimidating staff - Burke isn't accused of this and hasn't even been arrested on any charge.

    Conviction for commiting fraud - Burke isn't accused of this and hasn't even been arrested on any charge.

    Conviction for theft - Burke isn't accused of this and hasn't even been arrested on any charge.

    Fake qualifictions - this is a basic issue of qualified or not.

    Conviction for child abuse - Burke isn't accused of this and hasn't even been arrested on any charge.

    Putting sellotape on five pupil's mouths - OK, this one doesn't have a conviction with it, but serious assault on five pupils certainly deserves being fired, note also that this was a new teacher without a long-standing professional reputation to rely on.

    There is nothing in anything you have said that gives any confidence that the Teaching Council will act. In the vast majority of cases, the Teaching Council, despite their 54 staff, have to rely on the Gardai and the Courts to fire someone. Under the vast majority of the clauses quoted by you, the Teaching Council either fails to take action, or punishes with something less than removal from register.

    Given the poor record of the Teaching Council in dealing with complaints - even the Sellotape case took six years - I remain confident that Burke will not be struck off the Register this decade and will continue to be paid.

    Now, nowhere am I saying that Burke shouldn't be fired, all I am saying is that the Teaching Council is incapable of dealing with cases like his.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,210 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    I know all of that. Im talking about post disciplinary hearing.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I never said they matched what he has done, but merely provided them as examples as to how broad the "fitness to teach" scope is.

    As I laid though, there are many, many professional standards to which he has failed to adhere to.

    You think they won't act, fair enough, I think they will. I guess we'll have to wait and see. Neither of us is right until they make some comment on the topic



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,985 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    No. It is incumbent on him just as it is the school to adhere to the process governed by the WRC.

    Chasing your boss around in a threatening manner is probably gross misconduct in itself, but his actions since certainly constitute it.

    Given his actions and his outright refusal to follow the process there is absolutely no way any WRC officer would overrule a dismissal charge.

    Also it's worth remembering these Freaks have been to the WRC before.

    Do you have any idea how annoying you have to be for WRC to even consider calling the guards. 😂



  • Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭Morris Garren


    'Political Protest' mehole... he's hardly in the Bobby Sands/Rosa Parks constituency, not even remotely and the occasional cry of martyrdom and 'sticking to his principles' borders on the disingenuous.

    Any person going to jail over pronouns, on foot of disrespecting and causing distress to a vulnerable child/children, never mind abusing his boss, is essentially overdosing on hubris and is pretty much not fit to be working in a school. The 'religious freedom' angle doesn't cut it for me either because there are millions of good religious folk with deeply held beliefs who don't behave like a d1ckhead at the same time, shouting and raving, abusing the courts and judiciary either.

    Just give it time-- he will be sacked, barred from teaching, and vanish back to the amurica-sponsored hole he crawled out from. Fairly certain. Then we will move on. To the next mini-outrage. Pronouns and trans people will still exist. The world won't collapse into hell or armaggeddon either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 365 ✭✭csirl


    Zero chance the Teaching Council do anything. They have never suspended a teacher who hasnt been convicted of a serious criminal offence.

    No point in the parents lodging a complaint - Teaching Council receives c.40 parental complaints per annum and in its 20 year history no parental complaint has ever been successful.

    About as useful.as a chocolate teapot and, if anything, a barrier to patental complaints going anywhere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 365 ✭✭csirl


    Blanch is right, Teaching Council will do nothing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    You have to deal with his original suspension first. He was suspended for a certain action, namely shouting at the principal. It may or may not have been in a threatening manner, that end of it is pretty subjective. I've heard no reports that he threatened the principal or used bad language towards her, although I fully accept the principal may have felt threatened.

    Actions after he had been suspended can't be dealt with until the first issue is sorted out. They are a different matter and certainly warrant a second disciplinary procedure if he isn't sacked for the first one.

    It's not totally impossible that Burke will win his appeal regarding the suspension although the odds are stacked against him. If the school failed to dot every single 'i' and cross every single 't', the suspension could be found to be unfair/illegal. And even if Burke doesn't get the suspension deemed unfair/illegal, there's no guarantee that shouting at his boss would warrant dismissal. Tis hard enough to sack teachers here. I work in the Public Service and there's absolutely no way I'd be fired for shouting at my boss at a function like Burke did. I'd argue that it was a legitimate protest over this, that and the other. I'd possibly be disciplined, maybe a warning or get sent to 'Craggy Island' but not a chance I'd be fired.

    And unless you are a WRC officer and have all of the facts in front of you and heard all the witnesses, you can't be sure what way they would rule.

    And after all that, I still think Burke is a woeful gobshyte.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,440 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Can you distinguish between the benefit people derive from faith, and what some do in the name of religion?

    Surely in Ireland of all places, even someone with the IQ of a doorknob would understand that to some people, their faith is useful, why do you think so many still go to their place of worship?

    I’m not religious, but I still acknowledge that for some, their faith is very important without making them do things that you disagree with.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 365 ✭✭csirl


    Tusla has no roll in the investigation of child protection issues in schools and will not investigate. Their official stance is that D/Education is responsible and any complaints are handled via education sector processes.



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