Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

Podge_irl · 08-01-2023 6:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120082586#Comment_120082586

Would they even be allowed? The 6 day turnaround in particular is a killer.

stephen_n · 08-01-2023 6:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120082528#Comment_120082528

Yes but that one posters only passion in life is **** on Leinster and Ireland players. They never have anything positive to say about anything to do with either team. So it’s hardly a reflection of the general commentary. There are always extremists.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 08-01-2023 7:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120082630#Comment_120082630

I don't know. I keep hearing provincial coaches talk about how the IRFU don't mandate anything for specific games (except for training camps before international windows).

So I would assume that its part of a block of games and we choose where people get minutes.

The way minutes fall it might basically mean making the decision in advance to send the seconds down to South Africa but I think that's something that's will be planned for anyway.

Podge_irl · 08-01-2023 7:13pm

Yeah, I'd say that is already pencilled in as a 2nds tour - even a possibility we have #1 locked up by then. Which, while acknowledging the practicality of it, I find very disappointing for a second season running.

Dave_The_Sheep · 08-01-2023 7:32pm

If there's a possibility that wins down there would knock an SA team or two into a harder playoff spot, I'd like us to go for it. Can't see it happening though.

Podge_irl · 08-01-2023 7:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120082880#Comment_120082880

I'd like to see us going for it just for the test of sending a full team down to win some hard games. I defer to the Leinster management, but it's the hardest test we can give ourselves til the Euro final (hell, given the final is in Dublin, potentially harder).

Neil3030 · 08-01-2023 7:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120082890#Comment_120082890

Travel related risk is the wildcard though. You will certainly get battle-hardened for the final, but unless the league points are needed, the risks of travel likely outweigh any benefits. Travel-fatigue-related injury, illnesses spreading through camp, injuries related to petting wild animals, we've seen it all at this stage.

Interested Observer · 08-01-2023 7:40pm

Is Joe McCarthy injured? Hasn't been involved the last two weeks.

Podge_irl · 08-01-2023 7:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120082902#Comment_120082902

Sure. I see the logic. Just makes me a bit sad that we don't get to see a full strength Leinster team down there.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 08-01-2023 7:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120082902#Comment_120082902

When you have a 9 week block like this the South African tour makes sense to rest people.

cup last sixteen, cup quarter final, South African tour x2, cup semi final, league quarter final, league semi final, European final, league final

Remember the traveling parties for the South African tour is limited so you can't really bring people unless you don't mind them playing both games.

Dubinusa · 08-01-2023 9:12pm

Glasgow did us a favor. That's great. Our next league match is v Cardiff. I'd like to see us tear them up. But, we'll be down a lot of international lads.

Rewatching the match, I am surprised that the attendance was poor. No wonder the WRU is a shitshow. You would think it would be a full house.

crisco10 · 09-01-2023 12:52am

Tactics from Leinster seem clear, picking fairly strong teams and accumlaulate points now to allow for a 2nd string to go to SA.

Stormers have a tough run in. They're away to Ulster (if they can sort their **** out), bulls and sharks.

Dubinusa · 09-01-2023 2:29pm

We have a reasonably tough run in too. The Edinburgh match is one that could trip us up. We'll be down a lot of lads. Cardiff at home could also be a tough nut.

Squad health will be important. That's a run of matches that fringe lads and academy players will get tested.

Buer · 09-01-2023 3:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085563#Comment_120085563

It benefits Leinster to play that sort of game during the 6N. Whilst Leinster might be down 15 guys from the Irish 23, Edinburgh will be down 8 and their replacements aren't going to be guys like Molony, Baird, McGrath, Ngatai etc.

Clegg · 09-01-2023 3:33pm

Ngatai injured his hamstring and won't be available for the Gloucester match. Sexton and Furlong are both still unavailable. No further updates on anyone else.

That probably means Osborne will start at 12.

https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/leinster-injury-update-ahead-of-gloucester-clash/

arsebiscuits1 · 09-01-2023 4:07pm

Second week in a row Healy is subjected to some lazy conjecture. But to be fair that's TRCs bread and butter. Overt negativity with no substance to back it up....

Firstly. Tom Francis is an excellent tighthead. He was a stalwart in Exeters rise to the top appearing in 4 premiership finals in a row. He also started 4 games in Wales 2019 grand slam win. He's got 62 Wales caps (majority starts) and 116 appearances for Exeter adding to his Ospreys appearances.

Secondly. Ospreys have won the most scrum penalties of any team this season in the URC. They've a grizzled front 5 who love to scrum and maul and do a fantastic job of it.

Healy conceded no scrum penalties the entire game. Ala'alatoa has what can easily be described as a tough day at the office. Conceding 2 penalities at scrum time (but winning one)

Healy held his own against Francis and easily (relatively...) dealt with him.

More impressive given the ref stood on his side of the scrum for the majority of the scrums that Healy packed down for. He was able to adapt to the refs commands on the fly regarding his elbow positioning too.

It could be argued the FK for early push was on him which led to their score.

Including resets he was involved in 15 scrums. No penalties conceded.

Tit for tat also with moments of Francis losing his bind and Healy having questionable driving angle.

So yes he is good enough. This was a good performance at scrum time overall. Not great but good. He's more than capable of mixing it still with some premier Tighthead props. Which Francis unquestionably is.

Dubinusa · 09-01-2023 4:51pm

The critical analysis of Healy is warranted, imo. But, if we could produce a quality loose head then the discussion is moot. Unlike yourself Arsrbiscuits, I didn't think Healy did well v Francis. Agreed he did better than Ala'Alatoa but, I thought they were both over matched.

Healy is still fairly good. It's not his problem if others can't get past him. My feeling is that Cian looks labored and is poor around the pitch. But, that's to be expected at his age.

Shots fired! Lol

arsebiscuits1 · 09-01-2023 5:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086328#Comment_120086328

There is no "think" about it though.

Granular analysis of high performance sport negates much of the need for subjectivity. It's why I dislike so much when people say "I'm entitled to my opinion" in these cases. That's just a different way of saying "I don't know what I'm talking about"

Healy conceded no scrum penalties. He took backwards steps of note on one occasion when Ala'alatoa got his wings. He was involved in the usual boring angles and bind shifts that all looseheads get up to (including Nicky Smith)

Also I never stated that he did well. My exact words were good not great. I simply offered arguments contrary to the argument that he is "not good enough"

But there is merit to Healys performance at scrum time in this game considering Francis profile.

I debunked your worries of Healys around the park ability post Munster so wont be revisiting

Dubinusa · 09-01-2023 6:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086423#Comment_120086423

Right! Hmmmn. We will disagree.

Dubinusa · 09-01-2023 6:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086423#Comment_120086423

Do you think Healy will get Leinster and Ireland over the hump?

Interested Observer · 09-01-2023 6:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120085991#Comment_120085991

Ngatai was clearly not right at the end of the Connacht game, even before he made the break for Baird's try he was definitely uncomfortable and he came off immediately. I wonder if he was brought back a week too early. Anyway good for Osborne to get a high level game with Ringrose there.

Full injury list then is:

Luke McGrath (ankle), Max Deegan (ankle), Ed Byrne (knee), Jason Jenkins (hamstring), Robbie Henshaw (wrist), Martin Moloney (knee), Ciarán Frawley (knee), Charlie Ryan (knee) and Tommy O’Brien (knee), Sexton (face), Furlong (calf), Ngatai (Hamstring)

There's the guts of a starting XV there.

leakyboots · 09-01-2023 9:24pm

What's the timeline on Henshaw and Furlong?

09-01-2023 9:31pm

I didn't get to see the game at the weekend, and only saw it today.

Had read this thread beforehand, and not factoring in the typical levels of hyperbole, actually expected much worse.

We were poor. Lacked a little bit of physicality in the tight exchanges (I thought Deeny and Molony struggled to impose themselves on the game), and Penny had one of his poorer and more inaccurate outings (especially at the breakdown), but no coincidence they were up against grizzled, proven elites of recent Welsh rugby history in Alun-Wyn Jones and Justin Tipuric. Both may be past their best at an international level, but URC level isn't that.

Leinster kicked badly throughout; especially Jamie Osborne who made some bad reads and executed badly a few times. This will happen, he's an incredibly young player who's already racked up major minutes for Leinster, he's obviously going to have his bumpy days along the way.

Harry Byrne was poor, but the reaction in this thread is OTT. He hadn't started a game since April, pack were struggling, Foley was struggling for clean ball and his accuracy was off, and Byrne was guilty of forcing things, but I'd still expect to see HB get European Cup minutes over the next two weekends, backing up his older brother.

09-01-2023 9:34pm

Related point on HB - too much is made of "noticeable" errors which are obvious on TV, especially in evaluating out half play. Things like a knock on, or a kick out on the full or missed shot at goal draw absolute scorn and derision from some quarters, when actually you want to evaluate how flat to the gainline the 10 is taking the ball, if he's trying to commit defenders and make the right decisions in busy passing channels.

Equally, on the flipside, things like pacy line breaks occasionally draw rave reviews, even though a 10 could be struggling to get a back line moving. I always thought this was the case often with Ian Madigan, who was a threat with the ball in his own hand and running, but would struggle to pick the right passing options.

I'm not using this to say Harry Byrne didn't have a poor game on Saturday night, but he wasn't as bad as some of the posters here would have you believe either.

Dubinusa · 09-01-2023 9:49pm

I didn't think Penny went bad, tbh. I think the 2nd row was light and I thought they got through a lot of work. Deeny is heavier than Molony? In matches like this it's obvious that Molony is light. I guess that's why he isn't capped for Ireland.

Osborne did have a poor enough outing. Foley too! I thought Foley was very poor. Luke out is tough.

stephen_n · 09-01-2023 9:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087460#Comment_120087460

Sometimes playing flat to the line is the wrong idea though. Especially when the ball is ****. Ospreys were committing very little to the rucks but we’re managing to make a mess of them. That along with some poor passing from Foley. Meant Harry was not getting a great supply. So trying to take it flat to the line was causing him difficulty.

AWJ might be URC standard in everything else. He is still an international class sh1thouse at the ruck. He got away with murder at ruck time on Saturday. A master class in the dark arts.

Dubinusa · 09-01-2023 9:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087557#Comment_120087557

Ospreys really put it to us. It is a great win considering!

09-01-2023 9:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087535#Comment_120087535

It's not just actual weight though that matters. There's a big difference between just carrying weight and playing strength. Deeny might be carrying a few extra kilos than Molony, but I'd be shocked if he was stronger than him right now in the scrum or maul.

Penny was as busy as he usually is, but I thought he was inaccurate. Got isolated a handful of times carrying, missed his clear out a few times at rucks and just generally didn't see things go his way.

Osborne had some good moments, mixed with some poor ones. He kicked badly out of hand almost every time he put boot to ball. I'd still back him to bounce back at 12 next week in Europe.

09-01-2023 10:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087557#Comment_120087557

Yeah, look I get that of course, and I wasn't implying that's the only characteristic you want to see from OH play, but using it as an example of a specific skillset for evaluating OH play versus just errors, which are over-cited in evaluating players performance.

Agreed on AWJ and the rucks in general. Seemed to be a complete shambles at times, with both sides guilty of players flying in off feet, attempting to jackal well after a ruck had been formed etc.

Dubinusa · 09-01-2023 10:04pm

I thought Ruddock was off the boil. He didn't really make any ground with the ball in hand.

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

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