Gareth Bale: The Greatest British Footballer

SlickRic · 09-01-2023 6:48pm #1

Is he the greatest?

Won the Champions League five times, which is the joint second most in history. And he made final defining contributions in two of those.

Goals, assists and trophies galore.

Took Wales to the Euros for the first time ever and the World Cup for the 1st time in 64 years.

Is there even an argument against it?

steinbock123 · 09-01-2023 6:55pm

Do you mean greatest current player?

y0ssar1an22 · 09-01-2023 7:10pm

he'd have to be in the reckoning for all time. i cant speak about the likes of best, law, 1966 english players. only saw highlights. some of the liverpool lads from the 70 - 80's, jimmy greaves.

going further back there is john charles and prob a few other.

in more recent times, shearer, giggs, plus more.

basically i dont really know as dont have enough knowledge. in the last 15-20 years, i'd say yes.

El Gato De Negocios · 09-01-2023 7:16pm

Not even close in my humble opinion.

Maybe if the measurement is the CL only but I'd easily have a plethora of modern day footballers ahead of him. Off the top of my head Scholes, Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard are all comfortably ahead of him. Then there is an argument for multiple others to be on his level. And that's just the PL era.

On his day he was sensational, no doubt, but he's not near the highest level. Injuries play a part in that but also his lackadaisical attitude to all things professional for the last 5 or 6 years mean hes not in the equation for me.

SlickRic · 09-01-2023 7:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086882#Comment_120086882

Greatest is a little different to best. He's brilliant and he has the medals, as well as the final performances.

Also, those players' achievements don't come close.

Weepsie · 09-01-2023 9:20pm

He was a good player in part of a good Madrid team. He was scarcely deserving of poty some of the times he got it.

Cookiemunster · 09-01-2023 9:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120086890#Comment_120086890

There are quite a lot of players at Real Madrid who've won as many trophies as him. The number of medals a player has doesn't mean anything about his standing in the game, just that he was lucky to play for one of the best teams in the world.

Also I suggest you have a look at the trophy hauls of the of Scholes, Rooney and Lampard. None may have 5 CLs (Bales league and CL medals from last season come with a serious asterisk BTW), but all have won the CL and all have more major medals than him.

Brilliant player on his day, no doubt, but not a hope he was the greatest British player ever.

SlickRic · 09-01-2023 9:51pm

Not a hope it's Scholes, Rooney, Giggs, Lampard or Gerrard either then.

Mr.Nice Guy · 09-01-2023 9:55pm

I would say he is the greatest British player. There have been British players that have had better club careers, and better international careers, but as far as combined greatness at both club and international level, I can't think of a player that got to his level.

BenK · 09-01-2023 11:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120087548#Comment_120087548

I'd have Gerrard, Scholes and Rooney comfortably ahead of him. Shearer too. Even Kane off the top of my head. A gifted player no doubt but if I was picking a greatest British team, he'd be well down the list of players, I don't know would I even have him on the team. Never mind the older era of players that I wouldn't have seen much of like Best, Charlton etc. too.

In terms of medals, the champions leagues haul stands out as a very impressive achievement but he hardly drove Real to all of them. He was lucky to be on a great team.

Mr.Nice Guy · 10-01-2023 2:47am

Most of the alternatives offered in this thread aren't close to Bale.

Rooney - awful international tournament record. Showed promise as a youngster but was later remembered for: 'Nice to see your own fans booing ya, f*ck sake'.

Scholes - nothing international career.

Gerrard - never won a league title. Not in the debate. Also nothing international career.

Giggs - nothing international career.

Lampard - nothing international career.

Kane - never won silverware. Not in the debate.

Best - burned himself out.

Bobby Charlton is the best candidate offered so far. Has pedigree at club and international level. Very few would have seen him live though from our generation.

~Rebel~ · 10-01-2023 3:14am

The biggest issue I'd have with giving him a title like Greatest British Player Ever is just his lack of time as a foundational player at Madrid, where his whole medal haul comes from... he was very often really good when he played, but spent so so much of those great seasons on the bench or in the physio room.

Over his 8 seasons at Real, he only started an average of 17.3 league games a year - less than half their games. The most he ever started in a season was 24 (in his first season), which is still only 63%.

And while he was there for 5 Champions League Finals - he only started 2 of them (the first two).

His whole time at Madrid just flatters to deceive a bit once you dig into it.

An incredible player obviously, but between his lack of time on the pitch and his fairly rubbish attitude the longer things went on, I'd just find it hard to call him the Greatest Ever.

dogbert27 · 10-01-2023 5:47am

Kenny Dalglish. The King!

Weepsie · 10-01-2023 8:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088377#Comment_120088377

What international career in comparison did bale have? Knock out rounds of a few tournaments. He may as well not have been at the world cup for all the use he was.

He did absolutely no better than any of the others. They had one excellent euros. That's it

noodler · 10-01-2023 9:09am

I had this row with a man united fan yesterday.

Some people don't value the three tournaments he got Wales to (incl semis). For three or for campaigns in a row, Bale was the decisive goalscorer in something like two out of every three games* as well. He was the difference maker more often than any other player I can think of.

Then, as already mentioned, he managed to make telling contributions in so many CL finals.

noodler · 10-01-2023 9:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088550#Comment_120088550

That's just nonsense for me.

Nevermind the semis in 2016, but I'd you really can't see the achievement in Bale dragging Wales to three tournaments after 40 years with nothing than what's the point in discussing.

SlickRic · 10-01-2023 9:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088377#Comment_120088377

This is correct.

Only Charlton has a case against him.

McFly85 · 10-01-2023 9:53am

Bale will easily be remembered as Wales greatest player, but greatest British player ever is a stretch.

All of his trophies have come from his time with an incredible Madrid team, a team that it’s very hard to argue he was integral to most years he was there, due to injuries or just not being in favour with management. His attitude towards his club did him no favours in his last years either(that Wales Golf Madrid flag was classless in the extreme).

There are many British players that may not have the trophy haul he has but I would consider better, mainly because they would have been far more influential to their club teams throughout their career.

SlickRic · 10-01-2023 9:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088550#Comment_120088550

For Wales.

event · 10-01-2023 10:51am

He's not even the greatest ever welsh player.

John Charles. Players who played in his era have him up with Pele, Maradona, Best etc. Went to Serie A in the 50s. Juve hadnt won the league for 5 years before he joined. Then won it 3 times in 5 years. And didnt win it for 4 years after he left. He was 3rd in the Balon d'Or in the 50s, no welsh player has been higher. Took wales to the WC back in 58, first ever time they qualified.

SlickRic · 10-01-2023 10:53am

What amazes me about the arguments against Bale is some of the inconsistency.

"He played on a great team." As if Scholes, Rooney, Lampard and Giggs weren't at massive clubs, inarguably dynastic in the case of Utd, with top tier all-time managers.

"He wasn't the driving force." Neither were Scholes or Giggs. Rooney wasn't the best player during the great run at the end of the noughties, though I concede you could argue he was the heartbeat for a time. Lampard, maybe too. But Bale also has defining contributions in 2 CL finals and at least one domestic final.

"What did he really do with Wales?" Giggs couldn't do what he did, so that's him out. And I assume the argument would be that if a Rooney, Lampard or Gerrard played for Wales, they could've done what Bale did. Firstly, I disagree that they could, and secondly, you can't have it every which way. Those great players had a chance to do something of note with England and never did. That means something. You're judged on your international career in terms of what you did, and a part of it is judging what you achieved compared to what the reasonable expectations should be. Bale exceeded anything the minute Wales got to the semi finals of a major tournament.

The argument for Gerrard would be that he was arguably England's most talented ever player, and even though he played for Liverpool through a spell where they weren't at the top table domestically, anything they did achieve was down to him dragging them. nothing massively different to what Bale did for Wales, though.

The only argument I can see against Bale is that he never managed to win anything with Spurs over the 2 years there where he was really in his pomp. He was arguably the best player in England, but he didn't get a trophy. But then again, you could level something at any player.

There's also a little 'out of sight, out of mind' when it comes to Bale, and it's forgotten how intrinsic he was for a good while to that team. Also, the last couple of years at Madrid give us a skewed idea of what he was.

Greatest ever British player is Bale or Charlton for me. And I'm not going to argue with you much over which one.

yourdeadwright · 10-01-2023 11:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088841#Comment_120088841

Not even close ,

He was a brilliant footballer who had a fantastic career , benefited hugely from joining Madrid when they had Ronaldo & a brilliantly functioning team but Greatest British footballer no sorry ,

For example one player you mentioned there Gerrard

Do you think Bale was as good a footballer week in week out as Gerrard was ? no no nope chance he was ,

No taking away from Bale he was an exceptional footballer but Gerrard was a force of nature,

Gerrard' is just one player you mentioned who was a better player than Bale ,

SlickRic · 10-01-2023 11:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088924#Comment_120088924

as I said earlier, 'greatest' is a little different to 'best'. it's not only about footballing ability, but achievement too.

if we're going just purely the best footballer, the debate would be a bit pointless. Rooney and Gerrard are better pure players. I don't think anyone would argue against that. although 'not even close' is highly disrespectful to Bale, and hurts the point a bit.

yourdeadwright · 10-01-2023 11:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088954#Comment_120088954

I see what your saying , if you said most successful then it's possible it's Bale

But to me greatest means the best footballer week in week out , which i don't think is Bale ,

As i said Bale was unbelievable but i think certain guys like Gerrard where a level above,

Lets not forget the 6 birtish B'allon D'or winners

Bale won 5 Champions leagues, He scored 6 in the first one he won which is a great return but after that he manged 5 goals combined in the 4 other tournaments he won , 3 of which where in the actual final

TipsyMcStagge · 10-01-2023 12:39pm

Steven Gerrard wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes in the Real Madrid team Bale starred in. Bale is certainly in the conversation no doubt though the likes of Best Charlton Greaves Charles and Rooney are certainly in there as well. Bale's stinking attitude in his last few years is his downfall IMO. If Stephen Gerrard is in this conversation then surely Michael Carrick must be in it as well.

Xander10 · 10-01-2023 1:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120088648#Comment_120088648

John Charles

Ian Rush

Ryan Giggs

10-01-2023 1:59pm

Bale the greatest (probably) medal collection of any footballer from Britain. Who also helped Wales do a few great things by Wales standards.

But if he somehow played for england and achieved more with them then Wales it would count against him.

By slicks standards sterling must be pretty close, no champions league medals of course though

thebaz · 10-01-2023 2:01pm

He was a great player in his prime , but really fell off later years, his later years soured it for me , greatness is Maradonna, Messi

But a super player especially in his younger years, but think getting too much hype now.

Cookiemunster · 10-01-2023 2:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120089706#Comment_120089706

I would say his fellow country man Ryan Giggs has a better medal haul. 13 PL titles, 2 CLs, 4 FA Cups, 3 League Cups.

10-01-2023 2:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120089821#Comment_120089821

O deffo alright but is excluded because of international success or lack of.

Sterling has medals and some above average finishes for england in international tournaments.

Going off the prerequisites he'd rate high id imagine.

McFly85 · 10-01-2023 2:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120089521#Comment_120089521

I think Bale stands apart from those(maybe not Charles but way before my time!). 3 tournament qualifications in a very ordinary team and a semi final is an excellent national record for a team that hadn’t qualified for anything in years.

The question mark about his greatness is about his time at Madrid. I think most people consider greatest ever players to be a defining player of a great team. He absolutely had some big moments in the CL and Copa Del Rey but you can’t really say he was instrumental in any of their league wins considering how little he played. I mean if Bale is considered the greatest ever British player ever based on his club and country records, then half that Madrid team could be considered greater than any British player ever which I wouldn’t agree with.

bucketybuck · 10-01-2023 2:51pm

What amazes me about the arguments against Bale is some of the inconsistency.

"He played on a great team." As if Scholes, Rooney, Lampard and Giggs weren't at massive clubs, inarguably dynastic in the case of Utd, with top tier all-time managers.

I'd say the difference is that Scholes, Lampard, Gerard etc weren't just at big clubs, they actually played for them as well.

Bale might get more respect if he hadn't spent so much of his career sitting on his arse picking up a paycheck.

SlickRic · 10-01-2023 2:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120089706#Comment_120089706

Not even close.

Bale has made telling contributions to win titles, CLs and cups, as well as bringing a minnow country to a major semi final. you know as well as I do that Sterling could never...

i'm not saying you do this, but a lot of the issues people have with Bale come down to the fact he largely downed tools by the time he hit 30/31. it clouds judgment on how good he actually was for a decade, and how important he was for club and country.

also separately, Giggs is mentioned a couple of times (presumably because he's also Welsh), but he isn't on Bale's level in this debate. all he's got is longevity. if someone denigrates Bale's titles because he played for Real, then I don't know what you can say about Giggs at the Utd dynasty. and in terms of not only winning in Europe, but also making game-defining contributions in multiple finals, Bale obviously wallops him. and then for country, it's not a fair fight.

I'll buy the John Charles argument that's out there though. a great shout, and absolutely debatable.

Xander10 · 10-01-2023 3:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120089842#Comment_120089842

I think I've heard John Giles describe John Charles as the greatest player he seen and he would have played with some greats, so that is good enough for me.

yourdeadwright · 10-01-2023 3:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090014#Comment_120090014

Bale is a odd one .,

For example

Bale is first season had a huge impact on the Champion's league

2 of his Champions league wins he contributed nothing

Then you get to two finals & he scores 3 goals in the 2 games, He basically contributed sweet FA up to that exact point in the tournaments but will be remember as the winner of both

It's been a brilliant career but odd when looked into

yourdeadwright · 10-01-2023 3:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120089307#Comment_120089307

Bizarre take ,not sure how anyone could watch both paly & think they are even close to the same level ,

Carrick individual awards

Individual

Gerrard individual awards

UEFA Club Footballer of the Year: 2005[277]
PFA Players' Player of the Year: 2005–06[44]
PFA Young Player of the Year: 2000–01[20]
PFA Premier League Team of the Year: 2000–01,[278] 2003–04,[279] 2004–05,[280] 2005–06,[281] 2006–07,[282] 2007–08,[283] 2008–09,[284] 2013–14[285]
PFA Fans' Player of the Year: 2000–01, 2008–09[286]
PFA Merit Award: 2015[287]
FWA Footballer of the Year: 2008–09[288]
Onze d'Argent: 2005[289]
FA England Player of the Year Award: 2007,[290] 2012[291]
Liverpool Player of the Season: 2004,[292] 2006,[293] 2007,[293] 2009[294]
Liverpool Fans Online Player of the Season: 2005,[295] 2007[296]
FIFA FIFPro World XI: 2007,[297] 2008,[298] 2009[299]
UEFA Team of the Year: 2005,[300] 2006,[301] 2007[302]
UEFA Ultimate Team of the Year[303]
UEFA European Championship Team of the Tournament: 2012[304]
ESM Team of the Year: 2008–09[305]
Premier League Player of the Month: March 2001, March 2003, December 2004, April 2006, March 2009, March 2014[2]
Most assists in the Premier League: 2013–14[306]
Premier League 20 Seasons Awards (1992–93 to 2011–12), Fantasy Team (public choice)[307]
English Football Hall of Fame: 2017[308]
FIFA Club World Championship Silver Ball: 2005[309]
Premier League Hall of Fame: 2021[310]

10-01-2023 3:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090014#Comment_120090014

I'm sure sterling has had his moments :)

Tbf to them Bale had Ramsey and Allen helping him out in Wales but I'll take the point there.

I do think bale gets very harshly critisised about the end of his career and I do think he had the potential to be an absolute super star and while he did do great things, He lacks the consistentcy of game time and longevity at his peak to be considered the greatest British for me at least.

On a separate note, and I am probably biased but i feel you are harsh on scholes while he may not have been a driver of the team like keano he was more the heartbeat of it that kept everything ticking over.

adaminho · 10-01-2023 4:01pm

Just a quick suggestion as I'm at work till 12 tonight so don't have time to do it up properly. Can anyone do up a metric where we could evaluate it it properly? I.e. 10pts for champions league 5pts, for a top 5 league trophy 5pts per international tournament. 3 pts domestic cups and 1pt for individual awards? Might make it easier?

TipsyMcStagge · 10-01-2023 4:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090142#Comment_120090142

Compare their trophies won. Gerrard was a big fish in a small pond whereas Michael Carrick was running the midfield for the best team in England for 5 years played in 3 champions league finals won several PL titles.

yourdeadwright · 10-01-2023 4:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090383#Comment_120090383

Why ? we are not comparing clubs we are comparing Players on an induvial bases ,

OGS won more trophies at club level than R9 , i suppose that makes him a better player does it ,

SlickRic · 10-01-2023 4:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090211#Comment_120090211

we're not going to get into a Scholes argument 😁

but for the record, my stance is he was obviously a phenomenal footballer, who was beautiful to watch, but as an opposition fan, I was always more scared of Keane, Beckham and the likes of Yorke, Cole and Van Nistelrooy over himself or Giggs. that's just me.

TipsyMcStagge · 10-01-2023 4:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090416#Comment_120090416

No but surely trophies won is Still important when judging the greatness of a player? Like I say Gerrard was a big fish in a small pond and it made him look better than what he was. Most of the individual awards you.posted simply prove that Gerrard was Liverpool's best player during most of his career I don't dispute that at all, I very much dispute that Gerrard is one of Britain's greatest ever players IMO he's not even close.

Cookiemunster · 10-01-2023 4:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090211#Comment_120090211

That point is very valid. It wasn't all the Bale show. As good as he was, Wales wouldn't have had the international success without Ramsey and Allen being there too.

yourdeadwright · 10-01-2023 4:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090455#Comment_120090455

8x Prem team of the years ,

Prem player of the year ,

Football writer player of the year

3 x Fifa pro teams of the year,

3 x champions league teams of the year,

European championship team of the tournament ,

3rd in the Ballon D'or

Among many many more

Ye your correct he was JUST the best player at Liverpool that's all ,

Cookiemunster · 10-01-2023 4:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090455#Comment_120090455

It depends really. Last season he got a league medal after a total of 5 appearances totalling 287 minutes and a CL medal after 2 appearances totalling 7 minutes. Should they really count as earned medals?

10-01-2023 4:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090447#Comment_120090447

Ha ha ha no deffo not apologies I couldn't help but say it though

McFly85 · 10-01-2023 4:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090455#Comment_120090455

Trophies won is definitely important, but if you’re putting someone in the bracket of the greatest ever from a region, the importance of the player to the team winning the trophies has to come into it.

Would Madrid have won everything they have without Bale? Certainly not. But you could argue that they would have still won a fair chunk of the silverware without him.

A great player for sure, and a national hero for Wales, and will rightly be remembered as such. But I don’t think he will be remembered as the greatest ever British player.

y0ssar1an22 · 10-01-2023 5:01pm

and going further back, dixie dean deserves a mention. 383 goals for everton in 433 games. his most prolific league season was 60 goals in 39 games.

and he played for sligo rovers so that gotta count for something: League of Ireland runners-up 1938–39, FAI Cup runners-up: 1938–39

good ole sky have very successfully whitewashed anything pre '92.

TipsyMcStagge · 10-01-2023 6:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090567#Comment_120090567

That's great proves Gerrard was a good player but IMO he is nowhere near the greatest ever British player. Michael Owen won ballon d'Or does that make him a better player than Gerrard?

TipsyMcStagge · 10-01-2023 6:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090605#Comment_120090605

Trophies won is just one metric to measure it by but it is still an important one. For the record I don't think Bale was the greatest ever British player.

POKERKING · 10-01-2023 8:42pm

Steven Gerrard never won the premier league and failed with a golden generation of england players at international. He has only ever done anything of significance with one team. He’s simply not in this conversation.

People forget how devastating bale was at spurs for two years before he moved to Madrid, he was incredible and there was a reason he cost 100m euro(was it a record at the time?). His achievements with wales were incredible too. He is definitely in the conversation for the greatest ever and none of the candidates thrown up so far(the ones that existed in my lifetime) compare so if not him it has to be one of the oldies.

Gareth Bale: The Greatest British Footballer

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