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Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,468 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    No doubt, but his argument will be that his rights were being infringed first and that the failure of the school to consider that, led to what followed.

    Whether that argument has merit, will be for a Judge to decide. One thing is certain, this will roll on for years to come, he will drag the school down the same rabbit hole the family did with the University.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,009 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    Here's a document (PDF) from the ASTI on the grievance procedure.


    Here's a copy and paste about the grievance procedure itself...

    PROCEDURES

    Stage 1

    1.1 The teacher shall discuss the grievance with the Principal teacher with a view to resolving it. The teacher may be accompanied by the ASTI School Steward or by a colleague nominated by the teacher at this meeting.

    1.2 If the complaint is unresolved, the teacher should be advised that, within a further ten school days, stage two may be invoked with a view to resolving the matter.

    Stage 2

    2.1 The teacher and/or the ASTI School Steward shall give notice in writing to the Principal and Manager or Chairperson of the Board of Management that Stage 2 of the Grievance Procedure is being invoked.

    2.2 The teacher shall discuss the grievance with the Manager or Chairperson of the Board with a view to resolving it. The teacher may be accompanied by the ASTI School Steward or by the nominated colleague at this meeting.

    2.3 The Manager or Chairperson shall immediately take such steps as he/she considers appropriate to have the grievance resolved informally.

    2.4 If the grievance is not resolved within ten school days the teacher shall be entitled to invoke Stage 3, within a further ten school days.

    Stage 3

    3.1 The teacher and/or the ASTI School Steward shall give notice in writing to the Chairperson of the Board of Management that Stage 3 of the Grievance Procedure is being invoked. In the case of a Manager, the teacher and/or School Steward may proceed to

    Stage 4.

    3.2 The teacher and/or the ASTI School Steward shall make a written submission to the Chairperson for consideration formally by the Board of Management.

    3.3 If the grievance involves the Principal, he/she shall be provided with a copy of the written submission and shall be requested by the Chairperson to prepare a written response to the submission.

    3.4 The Chairperson shall invite the aggrieved teacher and the ASTI School Steward or the nominated colleague to be in attendance at a formal Board meeting which shall be held within ten school days of receipt of the submission. The Board shall give a hearing to the aggrieved teacher.

    3.5 The Board shall try to resolve the grievance by conciliation and if the grievance is resolved the matter is concluded.

    3.6 If the Board is unable to resolve the grievance by conciliation it shall give a decision on the grievance.

    3.7 The Chairperson shall convey the decision in writing to the aggrieved teacher and/or the School Steward and to any other party or parties concerned within five school days of the hearing specified at 3.4.

    3.8 The teacher shall have the right to invoke Stage 4 of the procedure: (a) if the Chairperson fails to convey the decision within the specified period; (b) if the Board fails to give a hearing to the aggrieved teacher within the time specified in 3.4; (c) if the teacher is unwilling to accept the decision.

    It then goes on to detail the appeals process (Stage 4).

    It doesn't seem to involve harassing the principal at a school function.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    That's in the appendix. Nobody ever reads the appendix. Enoch is just more diligent than most.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,009 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa




  • Registered Users Posts: 19,423 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Hmmmm ….never knew so many of our learned friends subscribed to this platform?


    I’ll wait till tomorrow I think!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,006 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    At least they will get a break from him tomorrow as he shows up to shout nonsense at the Judge.

    🤷‍♀️



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,423 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Does Paddy Power have odds on the Mammy being there and being removed from court.

    Might be worth slipping a pony on that



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    I doubt they'd give odds on that as it's an almost sure thing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,065 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    I'm sorry but you must live in a very sheltered world. People can and do raise objections to matters they don't agree with. Burke allegedly shouting or talking loudly at his principal falls very far down the scale of what some get up to, when they take a mind to object.

    Burke's tactics currently seem to be to avoid the school disciplinary hearing and get the more substantive matter from his POV into the courts. He's in difficulty by virtue of a breaking court injunction last autumn but that arose from the suspension which arose from the disagreement with his principal which arose from his substantive objection on religious grounds. He's quite entitled as a citizen to use the courts and legal system to defend his position.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    @Henry Ford III, I know that.

    I was merely helping @manutd2007 to understand that using gender neutral pronouns, is not the same as calling "a boy a girl and vice versa".



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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    He had no right to verbally abuse the principal. In my world professionals act in a professional manner. Clearly your world is much different.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,009 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    There's a clearly defined grievance procedure for teachers that doesn't involve hassling your principal at a school function. Even religious people have to follow the rules.

    "quite entitled" is a perfect description.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,065 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    So we've reduced this whole matter now to the allegation that Burke verbally abused his principal. And that is his great crime.. allegedly shouting/ talking loudly/ addressing his school principal!!!!!!!!!!!

    That's what it comes down to! Utterly ridiculous that it got this far and if I was the school, I know what I'd be doing.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    It's very simple - If you shout at your boss , you get suspended.

    Everything else is utterly irrelevant for now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,006 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Burke's tactics currently seem to be to avoid the school disciplinary hearing and get the more substantive matter from his POV into the courts.

    There is no other substantive matter. That's in yer heads.

    Any points in law will have to based on factual reality, not what you or Burke would like it to be based on.

    The Hearing will go ahead with or without him, he will I reasonably assume have his contract of employment terminated. Although he has been given so much leeway this far, fúck knows what will happen.

    He will then if he wishes, appeal, go to WRC, labour court, etc.

    At no point will his fantasy be indulged, because that isn't how the law operates.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,009 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    What would you be doing? Repeating the same irrelevant point over and over and over and over, even though it's been shown countless times that it's not relevant? Because that's all you seem to be capable of here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,006 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Under law. It's harassing a fellow employee, this employee also happens to be his boss, it's grounds for straight termination.

    It's actually listed, so not even subjective.

    So is abuse of school property. Straight termination for that one too. Toast. 🤷‍♂️



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    It "Got this far" because of Enoch Burke and Enoch Burke alone.

    He shouted at this boss and they suspended him.

    His pathway to resolution was to attend the disciplinary hearing and make his case and if it was found that the boss had overstepped then Enoch would have been vindicated and the Boss would have been censured in some way for their actions.

    But instead he decided that he was simply going to ignore everyone and pretend it didn't happen and continue to attend school.

    After multiple attempts to get him to adhere to the disciplinary process as laid down, the school were forced to get an injunction to prevent him from continuing to come to the school and disrupting other staff and pupils.

    Even then , Enoch still wouldn't behave like an adult and kept coming to the school and ended up in jail for 100+ days because of it.

    ALL of this is on Enoch and no one else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    that was the first of the things he did wrong. that is what he was facing disciplinary sanctions for. you think the school should have just ignored it. some of us expect higher standards from professionals.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,014 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    It certainly isn't. It's the same as calling someone a bedside table or a garage door.

    There is no such thing as gender neutrality, it is a contradiction in terms. And I hold that to be a scientific fact, not a religious belief, because I am not religious. (there are some exceptions in marine and microbial life, but we are talking about humans)

    Burke is right and he is wrong. If I were faced with a situation as he was, that he was instructed in a professional setting to call a person by so-called gender neutral pronouns, I would just use their chosen name in all cases, e.g. Pat or Pat's.

    Burke would be able to do the same, as what this pupil chooses to do, with parental consent, cannot affect his beliefs, one way or the other, but he must not engage in misconduct because of it and thats whats at issue here.

    Any other person would have been fired by now, but institutions are afraid of the Burkes, which is a mistake and only emboldens them. When it comes to their behaviour, and I mean all the episodes in UL, Law Firms, Coroners Courts, Law Courts etc etc etc, people should have the confidence to treat them as everybody else (and some have), under their agreed policies and under the law of the land and trust that the law of the land will vindicate them in turn.

    Burke should be back in prison for contempt now and Wilsons should have terminated him long before now.



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  • I’ve decided im going to tell my boss, as loudly as is necessary, I’m no longer working on Sundays as it contradicts my religious belief.

    If I’m suspended I’ll go to work regardless. (Mon-Sat only of course). It’s my right. According to Enoch anyway.

    I might shout at a few customers while I’m at it, in for a penny and all that. sure what the hell, I might as well if it’s okay to be a complete tool for “religion” then why am I working Sunday.

    what a clown I’ve been. Thanks to the Enoch defenders for showing me the true way of the world. I can get away with anything as long as it’s for my religious beliefs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,689 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Well, yes, that was the reason that the school suspended him.

    Burke is pretending it's about his religious beliefs, but the reality is, he refused to follow a legitimate instruction, he abused the principal and he brought the school into disrepute.

    Now, I have my doubts as to whether all of that is sufficient to dismiss him, but it is certainly enough to suspend him with pay until a disciplinary hearing is called.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No, that is what you've reduced the matter down to.

    You seem to forget there were others present, who felt Burke's behaviour was serious enough that it warranted their intervention to place themselves between he and the Principal.

    The majority of the posters here see Burke's actions for what they are. Only a minority are attempting to downplay it



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


     so-called gender neutral pronouns

    So "They" is not a gender neutral pronoun?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,009 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa



    Completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but the word "they" has been a perfectly acceptable singular gender neutral pronoun in English since at least the 13th century, and doing so is in no way contrary to any scientific fact. We use it all the time in sentences like "Did someone knock at the door? Are they coming in?", "I saw someone outside. They were wearing a red coat.", and always have done.

    In fact, you just used their as a singular gender neutral pronoun in your post!

    If I were faced with a situation as he was, that he was instructed in a professional setting to call a person by so-called gender neutral pronouns, I would just use their chosen name in all cases, e.g. Pat or Pat's.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,065 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    With respect, it appears to me that the majority here are engaging in group think and seem happy to label Burke as some sort of monster and danger to society as a whole.

    If/ when this is finished, I'd be thinking there's a good many conservatively minded schools in the country who will be happy to take him on as a teacher. There should always be a place in education for mavericks and those with different opinions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,009 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa



    It could be group think; everyone else mindlessly agreeing with each other simply out of a deep-seated psychological desire for conformity and acceptance, and you are the one lone sane rebel with your eyes open, able to stand tall against it.

    or

    You could be just wrong, and everyone else is just pointing that obvious fact out to you.

    Objectively, which do you think is the most likely?



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,014 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Nope, its a collective pronoun, used only to refer to a group, of all males or all female, or both males and females, or a person or persons unidentified and unknown.

    I would never refer to a person as 'they' in their presence or about them in the presence of others. It is just ignorant and dismissive.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There is gender neutrality in language, both written and spoken and "they/them/their" are all pronouns that can be used in the singular to refer to a human being.

    I'm not even going to waste my time and energy engaging in a debate about whether gender neutrality exists or not, because it's irrelevant.

    If someone asks me to use "they/them/their" pronouns to refer to them, I'm just going to be a decent human being and respect their wishes.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,423 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    There’s ‘mavericks’ and ‘mavericks’ I have to say.



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