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You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the right.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,950 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°




  • Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭McHardcore


    Yea, not anyone. Its just you who reached that conclusion so far.

    But keep knocking on that door, im sure you will be proven right in one of these replies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,632 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    UK government taking a step to remove the thing that facilitated the vast majority of work place standards improvements over the last couple hundred years.

    They promised 350M/week for the NHS and sunlit uplands, this is what reality looks like. 'Project Fear' is actually now reality.

    This is what Rupert Murdoch and the rest of the right wing media helped bring about while telling people to get outraged about participation medals or other inconsequential bullsh*t. Well done to all the keyboard activists who helped them in making that become the narrative.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,427 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Oh yes, the media convinced the stupid, tabloid reading working class to vote for Brexit.

    The far left campaigned for Brexit. The current Trades Union darlings such as Mick Lynch, supported Brexit. His Union, the RMT, advocated for Brexit. Left wing keyboard activists were just as rabidly pro Brexit as their right wing counterparts.

    The left in Ireland has been consistently anti EU.

    People Before Profit were one of the few, along with other Irish socialist parties, to campaign for Brexit.

    The largest left wing party in Ireland today actively campaigned against every EU treaty.

    Support for Brexit was not solely a right wing phenomenon.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,632 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Brexit dragged its miserable sorry arse over the line after massive promotion of it by right wing media, right wing politicians and right wing commentators. Funded by right wing special interests and influenced by right wing companies enabling the microtargetting of the electorate in the data immediately prior to the referendum.

    Article 50 was then rushed through before any serious interpretation of the best way to go about the withdrawal just to quieten the right wing of Farage and Murdoch and Johnson and Hartley Brewer et al.

    The withdrawal negotiations were carried out entirely by right wing players trying to keep right wing groups happy as interpreted by right wing media.

    Brexit was categorically, definitively, unquestionably an outcome of the right wing.

    It's their baby, they own it. You're not talking to someone here who paid no attention to who actually was saying what before, during and since the biggest unforced shooting of themselves in the foot any country has done in any of our lifetimes.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Jack Daw


    The only Irish people that could legitimately be classed as refugees were people during the famine era which was 170 years ago all other waves of emigration from Ireland was caused by economic circumstances, they were economic migrants.

    Today you are allowed to dispose of your passport and documentation and still enter Ireland .This is a truly ridiculous situation that no sensible person should be in favour of.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,727 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    That's the thing that gets me about left wing Brexiters. It was always a right wing project. They go on and on about workers' rights, inequality and climate change only to push for a disaster capitalist project intended to make things even worse.

    By the way, all of the major unions except the RMT endorsed remain.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,632 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    We don't have a right wing in Ireland in the context of what we see in the US, or in the UK, but we have right wing aligned people, groups, policies within the context of our own environment.

    Whether that is people abusing people who have fled war in Ballymun, people spreading false narratives about medical science as we saw in Covid or bad policies such as I've mentioned here before of allowing US hedge funds buy out entire housing developments in Ireland as people struggle with a housing crisis.

    Here is another one of those policies that bows too much to the world of business in ways that aren't in the best interests of the wider society.

    As long as we bow to the interests of business first, particularly in the context of transport, we will never act the way we need to in order to reduce the number of private car journeys made in the country.

    This payment of 30M is criminal in any context, but particularly when accompanied with daily news about the aforementioned housing issues and also the access to medical care that is in the news right now.

    (Last weeks report of Ireland spending 180k/house more than European norms to build social housing also fals in to the category of right wing philosophies when it comes to managing public money that we are guilty of).



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,427 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    It is silly and dishonest to attempt to reframe the Brexit debate as one of a left/right dichotomy.

    Every thing you say above of right wing politicians, commentators can be said of left wing politicians and commentators.

    Conservative business owners were as likely to donate to Remain as Leave. The official Remain campaign received more donations. Many of those who would be castigated as right wing, advocated against Brexit. NATO, CEOs of footsie 100 companies campaigned against Brexit, while trade union leader’s campaigned for it.

    Right wing newspapers such as The Economist, The Times (owned by the aforementioned Rupert Murdoch) called for voters to reject Brexit. While some of the most vehemently left wing papers such as the Morning Star supported Brexit.


    The withdrawal negotiations were carried out by the British prime minister and their team. If Labour had been in government they would have undertaken the negotiations. It’s not the gotcha that you seem to think it is.

    Some of the negotiators such as Olly Robbins were criticised as being anti Brexit.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,287 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Alternatively, maybe you could try just reading what's actually written in front of you. The poster you're replying to made no such "implication" about totalitarianism being "exclusively right wing" at all. In fact, they were specifically limiting their comments to North Korea and not fascism in general or the right wing.

    Any "implication" is simply one that you've dreamt up.

    As for which way NK leans...whatever it is, it fails at being a Communist state by virtue of the fact that it has an extremely nationalist outlook based on race and is ruled by a familial dictatorship. All of which are an anathema to Marxist thinking. In fact, Marx would have thoroughly rejected every so called "Communist" country outright, because they usually ended up being the playthings of dictators. And, in any case, no country has ever achieved Communism and merely washed around in some form of bastardised Socialism, never getting to the point of being a Communist state. Although I would argue that Communism is practically unachievable so they were all on a hiding to nothing anyway.

    @McHardcore is correct in his assertion about North Korea and it's political leanings, however, and it's borne out by the activities and the belief system of the country itself. B.R. Myers writes that North Korea leans more towards a Japanese style fascism rather than a European style Communism, or any kind of Communism for that matter. It's ideology being more akin to a right wing, race based, set of ideals rather than a classless society where the proletariat has a direct say in how the country is run. Whatever North Korea may have claimed to be in the past or indeed now, it's actuality is very different.

    According to Myers...

    "North Korea’s dominant ideology or worldview" is far removed "from communism, Confucianism and the show-window doctrine of Juche Thought. Far from complex, it can be summarized in a single sentence: The Korean people are too pure blooded, and therefore too virtuous, to survive in this evil world without a great parental leader."

    "I need hardly point out that if such a race-based worldview is to be situated on our conventional left-right spectrum, it makes more sense to posit it on the extreme right than on the far left. Indeed, the similarity to the worldview of fascist Japan is striking. I do not, however, intend to label North Korea as fascist, a term too vague to be much use. It is enough for me to make clear that the country has always been, at the very least, ideologically closer to America’s adversaries in World War II than to communist China and Eastern Europe. This truth alone, if properly grasped, will not only help the West to understand the loyalty shown to the DPRK by its chronically impoverished citizens, but also to understand why the West’s policy of pursuing late Cold War type solutions to the nuclear problem is doomed to fail."

    And he makes a pretty compelling case as to the actual political ideology that prevails in the DPRK in his book 'The Cleanest Race', in which he divides the propaganda image that North Korea likes to project, both to insiders and outsiders, and what really happens within the country.

    Post edited by Tony EH on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,287 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    I would argue that most people who voted for Brexit, whether they were left wing or right wing, had absolutely no idea what they were voting for beyond "get out of Europe".



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,632 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    In much the same way as people here trying to respond to this thread by referring to historical events and players such as Communist Russia and Lenin actually proves the OP as being accurate, your attempt (failed attempt) here to paint Brexit as a Right AND LEFT issue is telling in that you doing so is evident of how much a failure it has been. If there was a semblance of success out of it, the right would be claiming it was solely because of them.

    The Brexit vote would not have happened but for the right wing rhetoric from Farage and supporting media.

    Article 50 would not have been invoked so swiftly but for the 1922 committee.

    The negotiations would not have been so disastrous but for the continued influence of these parties and the inclusion of the right wing DUP.

    But keep on trying to shift the blame, we don't buy it, and it proves another point for us anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,427 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    The referendum debate on Brexit was not a right/left issue. Support for each side was from across the political and ideological spectrum. To argue otherwise demonstrates ignorance of the reality.

    I don’t know why you continue to disagree that support for Remain came from the right and left as much as support for Brexit came from the right and left.

    I don’t know if multiple people use your account or if the use of the majestic plural is simply a device to support your beliefs. In any case the Gollumesque “we” and “us” is revealing.

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,950 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    Just wanted to draw attention to this part; "The poster you're replying to made no such "implication" about fascism being "exclusively right wing" at all. In fact, they were specifically limiting their comments to North Korea and not fascism in general or the right wing."

    Are you saying that fascism isn't" exclusively right wing"?

    https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095811414;jsessionid=77F170DD2A6B56AB5CEF04D4F57BB9D5

    "An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization."

    Your demonstrable inability to comprehend things written in front of you certainly puts a humorous spin on this statement; "Alternatively, maybe you could try just reading what's actually written in front of you."

    Chortle.

    I was discussing the other posters implied description of totalarianism, it's as if none of you are capable of thinking things out or proof reading your posts.


    North Korea isn't communist because you don't think it fits the ideals and vision of Karl Marx? And you quote the only academic who actually believes that to be the case as evidence. Bravo.

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭McHardcore


    With all these posters telling you differently, ever consider that you might be wrong?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,287 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Another snotty reply. Well done you.

    Again, it needs to be pointed out to you that McHardcore said that North Korea "its a socialist economy but a fascist regime with a totalarian leader."

    Nowhere is that poster saying that Totalitarianism is an exclusively right wing ideology. You misinterpreted what was said and are STILL continuing to misinterpret what was said, despite the fact that it's been clarified for you, even by the poster himself. At least be adult enough to own a simple mistake.

    As for academics, yeh I think I'll go with the guy who's spent decades studying the country and the regime as opposed to some guy on web who struggles to read other people's posts. 😉



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,950 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    When all the posters in question have such difficulty getting each others names right, talking about the correct topics, basic reading comprehension (which they have the neck to call others out on) and generally having no idea what they're talking about I think I could be forgiven for indulging myself.

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,950 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    I struggle to read others posts? You literally demonstrated your own inability to understand things written in front of you just a couple of posts ago.

    The poster implied something by not clarifying their position, they made a mistake that they have refused to acknowledge. I was happy to leave it alone until you waded in talking about how fascism "isn't exclusively right wing", seriously, how do you post something as ridiculous as that and even have the nerve to show up here again never mind coming back attempting to take the moral high ground?

    You quoted the only academic of note who holds the opinion that North Korea doesn't adhere to proper communist ideals, this person has been criticised for that opinion by other academics but you believe what you like, its not as if facts are high on your list of priorities.

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,287 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Sigh...we'll try this one time will we?

    The poster said of North Korea that "its a socialist economy but a fascist regime with a totalarian leader."

    You misinterpreted that as the poster saying that totalitarianism is always right wing. But nowhere in the post did the poster actually say such a thing. You then pivoted to a different position of accusing him of implying it instead when McHardcore clarified for you that he didn't actually say what you mistakenly believed he said. Then McHardcore corrected you again saying that no implication was made.

    You made a simple mistake. Just admit it, nobody is going to think any worse of you.


    And, yes, I made a typo and wrote "fascism" instead of "totalitarianism", which I'll now amend.


    See how easy that is? 😉



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,950 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    So my interpretation differs to yours therefore ivetmade a mistake and should own up to it?

    The post in question clearly stated that because North Korea is a totalarian state it is therefor right wing. There is an implication that totalarian = right wing and its as clear as day even if you and two other posters don't agree.

    You also stated that fascism isn't exclusively right wing(I'd accept it as a typo if it happened once, and I would have said nothing about it but you repeatedly used fascist and fascism and even after correcting yourself you've left fascism in where you should have replaced it with totalarianism). That displays a complete lack understanding, on the most fundamental and rudimentary level of what fascism is and consequently calls into question your opinions on anything related to it but I'm the one who needs to own up to a mistake based on my interpretation of the subtext of a post?

    Glazers Out!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,287 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    I haven't got all night to go round the bloody houses with you on this, so this is the last I'll waste any time on the matter.

    • The poster, McHardcore, did not say that totalitarianism was exclusively right wing when he said "its a socialist economy but a fascist regime with a totalarian leader.". Nor was the implication made. It's ok to misinterpret his post as such, but when his position is clarified for you and you continue dig down, then that becomes a matter of a deliberate nature on your behalf.
    • Also as I've said, in post 2263, I made a typo trading the word "fascism" for "totalitarianism", which I've corrected. You're not the only one on here than can make a mistake and as I am at work, these posts have to be written quickly. Whether you accept it or not, I don't care.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,950 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    You didn't have to wade in on this to begin with. McHardcore had made a post earlier that I decided to ignore as we had been going around in circles.

    You decided to throw your hat into the ring and contributed a post that began with telling me to read what was in front of me properly and then you proceeded to write a post absolutely riddled with errors which you now claim were simply typographical but to anyone reading them and your attempt to correct them retrospectively (it still at the time of this post doesn't read correctly, you may want to have another attempt at correcting it) the errors were in point of fact conceptual errors that demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of a topic you decided to weigh in on after the discussion had already run its natural course.

    In the end I had a disagreement with McHardcore and was satisfied to not pursue it further and let them have the last word. You decided to resurrect this all by yourself.

    Don't p*ss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

    Post edited by nullzero on

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,287 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    No one's "pissing" on you. But if you want to continue to wallow in your misinterpretation, feel free.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,950 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,182 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Every single far right player is currently destroying themselves.


    And these guys would try to gaslight god!


    Every time one of them drops it's like oh no the matrix! Maybe they are just incredibly dysfunctional.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,182 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Also I don't get people saying oh no staff shortages ..lab shortages ...yet enough with the immigration!


    Where do you think the staff will come from????


    The HSE would collapse ....



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,950 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭McHardcore



    You have been corrected by at least four posters now, but you keep returning to the same point.

    Also, what is "earlothat"?



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,950 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    Corrected? By people who can't structure a sentence correctly never mind an argument.

    "Earlothat" was meant to be "earlier that". A typo, you know, like typing fascism instead of totalarianism except its plausible to claim "Earlothat" is a typo.

    I've no problem admitting to making a mistake.

    Glazers Out!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭McHardcore


    Yes, we've heard your complaints of other posters typing mistakes and your confusion over the structure of sentences. You have been very vocal about this. No one agrees with you. You are on your own with that.



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