Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

Dubinusa · 11-01-2023 5:07pm

With no relegation, why would they send a weaker side? The team we face this week will be a better side. I don't know what the reason is for the team that they sent to the rds.

sydthebeat · 11-01-2023 5:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094958#Comment_120094958

the reason is because the completion format allows teams to throw matches and still easily qualify for the knock outs.

Gloucester beating bordeaux at home allowed them to send a shadow side to the RDS

When they play bordeau in the last round, its likely bordeau will be 0 from 3 and will have no interest.... so i wouldn't be surprised if glaws even name a reduced squad for this weekends game.

Leinster put 42 points on racing in Paris, and Racing are a better team than Glaws.

Exclamation Marc · 11-01-2023 5:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094376#Comment_120094376

Their intentions of winning were irrelevant that day. The competition is structured that you can take a loss (or two) in the group and still qualify. Gloucester saw a game against a likely full strength team that are one of the favourites in the competition away from home and said we'll prioritise the other games. I don't agree with it but its not nearly the same as fielding 'that team' in a knockout game.

Quin_Dub · 11-01-2023 5:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094958#Comment_120094958

Because they want to qualify for the playoffs in the Premiership and they had a number of key games in the weeks after the game at the RDS.

They may have felt that even fully loaded they weren't going to pick up points in Dublin so why waste the players energy before key Prem games.

It's about resource management , simple as that..

AdamD · 11-01-2023 5:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095043#Comment_120095043

Don't really want to drag this out any longer but any team with serious intent on winning The Champions Cup isn't throwing group games because they understand its not just about making the knockouts, its about getting favorable home ties.

Perhaps I'm incredibly biased because as a season ticket holder Gloucester ruined what should be one of the highlights of the year, a Friday night Champions Cup game.

Serbian · 11-01-2023 5:54pm

I never really got the whole shaming teams for sending under-powered or reserve teams for games in a competition. Luke Fitzgerald had a bit of a rant on his podcast which was something along the lines of it being disgraceful that Gloucester sending a weak team to Dublin and that he hopes that decision bites them in the ass later on. It's a self absorbed view point, "because I like this competition, everyone else should like it and take it seriously too".

It's not on Gloucester to find meaning in the Champions Cup or any other competition, it's about the EPCR incentivising the teams to field their best players regardless of whether it's a group game against Zebre or a semi final against Toulouse.

I know rugby can't compete financially with football, but the reason football teams take the Champions League so seriously is because they pay out huge sums of money by qualifying for the tournament (in the region of €15 million) and then offer cash per point earned in the group stages (€900k per point). Obviously there's more money to be earned by progressing to the latter stages and winning, but the point being that every game counts because there's huge amounts of money at stake at all times.

There's no public information on the prize money for the Champion's Cup, but from what I can tell (from an interview with the CEO of Gloucester ironically) is that there's no extra money for qualifying:

Gloucester Rugby would stand to make around £250,000 more each season from being in the Champions Cup. Stephen Vaughan, Gloucester Rugby chief executive, said:

“As a ball-park figure it is probably worth about quarter of a million across the season. We don’t get any more prize money or anything like that but if you’ve got 8,000 people here against Agen and then double that, you can do the maths.”

Gate receipts are the only draw for the club at this point, so field a good side at home to bring the crowd and who cares about the away games, because they're literally worthless.

Quin_Dub · 11-01-2023 6:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095123#Comment_120095123

Gloucester don't have "serious intent on winning the Champions cup" though - They would realistically be targeting possibly getting to the knock-out stage but mostly just happy to have qualified , giving them some extra TV money and a few decent gates for the extra home games.

They have achieved that minimum and if they can beat Bordeaux in two weeks they still have a shot at getting to the last 16 regardless of the result this week-end.

Not every team entering the the Champions Cup thinks that they can win it.

sydthebeat · 11-01-2023 6:15pm

the old format of the HC was one where, after playing 6 games, you could possible afford one loss, sometimes two, in order to progress in the competition.

this format, after 4 games, you can still progress with 3 loses

so when offered this format, its naive in the extreme that every team will go balls out in every game.

Montpellier shipped 89 points in the RDS last year and still comfortably made the knockouts with 2 loses from 4.... making the QF stage.

They also won the top 14 last season.

were they right to send the dredges to the RDS?? Patently so.

Interested Observer · 11-01-2023 6:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095246#Comment_120095246

Montpellier shipped 89 points in the RDS last year and still comfortably made the knockouts with 2 loses from 4.... making the QF stage.

One of those wins was a 28-0 Covid walkover.

sydthebeat · 11-01-2023 6:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095262#Comment_120095262

exactly... free points for nothing

pickarooney · 11-01-2023 6:23pm

Delete

CIARAN_BOYLE · 11-01-2023 6:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095205#Comment_120095205

In the Heineken cup away teams got revenue sharing from the gate. I presume its the same in the champions cup.

This means that qualifying for the last 16 gets TV money for an extra game and a split of the gate even its away.

stephen_n · 11-01-2023 7:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095123#Comment_120095123

There are only 3 maybe 4 teams with serious intent on winning it though. Maybe another 3-4 that could be hopeful of winning it outright. With a favorable draw and some luck. Gloucester don’t fall into either catagory.

molloyjh · 11-01-2023 7:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094554#Comment_120094554

I meant the reaction, but fair enough. Agree to disagree it is.

Former Former Former · 11-01-2023 8:44pm

Wouldn't be too hard on Gloucester tbh, they only ever had an outside chance of a win regardless of what team they sent, there were plenty of such selections in the old format too.

Lucas44 · 11-01-2023 10:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095262#Comment_120095262

And won the Top 14, the most intense rugby competition in world rugby. Meanwhile people here have no problem with leinster resting lads for 80% of the URC and not winning either competition. The truth of it is most teams in England and France don’t have the luxury of having a soft domestic league competition to allow them to focus on the champions cup. Look at the SA teams, most of them have rested big names in the champions cup away games and are focusing on their home games and the away ones they deem winnable, there’s no right or wrong strategy it’s very dependant on the individual squad. Also worth noting the Irish provinces have squads of 50+ players with academy lads included getting game time, most other clubs abroad are operating with a squad under 40

AdamD · 11-01-2023 11:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096400#Comment_120096400

The English league is as soft as any, despite how much they like to hype it up.

TRC10 · 12-01-2023 1:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096400#Comment_120096400

Meanwhile people here have no problem with leinster resting lads for 80% of the URC and not winning either competition.

Take a look at the URC table, and you'll see why nobody has a problem with it.

Dubinusa · 12-01-2023 2:55am

The premiership is ****. There's not many of the English clubs that would win the URC. Sarries maybe?

Lucas44 · 12-01-2023 4:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097084#Comment_120097084

Take a look at bristols squad who are dead bottom and reconsider. Outside of leinster, 1/2 of the South African teams there’s and maybe Munster or ulster the Urc teams wouldn’t fair too well. Also strip down all the Irish clubs to a 5.5 million salary cap (leinsters around 14m but irfu pay most) and then you’re left with a 35 man squad. In that scenario when there’s usually relegation (apart from this year) most teams have to play a full strength side every week to consistently compete and often come cc the stars have played 5/6 games on the bounce compared to the luxury of the URC. Anyway despite all that if you simply watch a prem game and then watch a URC game there is a significant difference in the on pitch product and it’s not the URC that’s better

genuinely believe sarries, sale, leicester, harlequinns & exeter would all compete very strongly to win the URC every year, there as good as our reigning champions in the URC

Lucas44 · 12-01-2023 4:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097033#Comment_120097033

And that is exactly why the URC is a much worse product than the Top 14 or Premiership. There is a significant gulf in class between the top to even middle of the road teams which leads to dead rubber games being played as early as December/January with South Africans teams sending over second string sides which the Irish provinces can beat but it doesn’t make for pretty viewing

I’ve no problem with leinster resting lads it’s not their fault there is such a gulf in class I just alluded to the point that there can’t be double standards pointed at Montpellier when leinster done the same thing and didn’t even make the URC final last year despite finishing well out infront

Lucas44 · 12-01-2023 4:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096702#Comment_120096702

Reality of it is in the last 10 years of champions cup:

URC winners: 1

Top 14: 5

Gallagher premiership: 4

TRC10 · 12-01-2023 5:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097121#Comment_120097121

This is pretty flawed logic and proves nothing regarding the competitiveness of the Premiership. Saracens accounted for 3 of those and Exeter for one. It just shows that there were one or two very strong sides in that league at the time. It's not like it was a different English club each time. Realistically, none of the other 10 English clubs would be anywhere near challenging for Europe. Had Leinster won it a couple more times over the last few years, it wouldn't somehow prove the URC to be a more completive league, as you appear to suggest.

From '06 to '12, the Celtic League/Magners League/Pro12 accounted for 5 of the Heineken Cup winners in those 7 seasons. So by your logic, it must have been the greatest league ever.

pickarooney · 12-01-2023 7:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097120#Comment_120097120

If you think losing by 89 points.and getting a LBP are the same thing I don't know what to tell you.

crisco10 · 12-01-2023 7:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097121#Comment_120097121

Or extend out to 15 years, and it becomes:

URC; 5 wins

Top14; 6

Gallagher premiership: 4

As someone else said, by no means a measure of the overall strength of the league.

Former Former Former · 12-01-2023 7:59am

leinster done the same thing and didn’t even make the URC final last year despite finishing well out infront

If Leinster could top the league but still get knocked out in the semis, doesn't that indicate the league is actually pretty competitive?

stephen_n · 12-01-2023 9:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096400#Comment_120096400

Not sure if you noticed but since the SA teams entered the league. Leinster have sent out very few weakened sides. Most times it’s a mix of full strength with some depth players. Apart from the games at the very end of the season when the league is already decided. The days of putting out nearly academy teams with a few old heads are gone.

12-01-2023 10:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097118#Comment_120097118

What’s your source for the figure of a Leinster wage bill of €14m?

I’ve tried to de-construct that number and still can’t make sense of it.

Leinster have a 65-man full squad this season, including 19 Academy players and James Tracy who retired mid-season. That number implies a salary of €215k per player (including the Academy lads).

I’ve separated the squad into four distinct cohorts here for classification purposes:

(A) Academy Players – assume a salary of €30k pa each (I don’t think it is this high), gives you a total spend of €570k.

(B) Take Leinster’s 15 best players (or the ones who would command the highest salary) and pay them €450k each (even though Ronan O’Gara said as recently as a year ago the highest salaries here are around €400k, and I certainly don’t think 15 players are getting the max). In this group I have: Furlong, Porter, Ryan, Jenkins, Sexton, JGP, Henshaw, Ringrose, Lowe, Conan, Doris, JVDF, Ngatai, Ala’alatoa & Keenan. Paying these 15 guys €450k each pa is €6,750,000. So total spend so far of €7.2m (meaning €6.8m left to spend)

(C) 12 recently contracted players – McElroy, Moloney, Foley, Milne, Clarkson, Abdaladze, Deeny, Ryan (Charlie), McCarthy (Joe), Turner, Osborne, O’Brien (Tommy). I’m charitably assuming a spend of €150k pa for these guys (don’t believe it’s anywhere close to this) – that gives €1,800,000. Total spend now (A+B+C = €9.12m)

(D) That means of the remaining group – 19 players – they’re splitting what is left over - €4.88m. That’s an average salary of €256k pa for a group of guys including: Ed Byrne, Kelleher, Sheehan, Baird, Molony, Healy, Connors, Deegan, Penny, Ruddock, L McGrath, R Byrne, H Byrne, Frawley, Kearney, Larmour, N McCarthy, Tracy, J O’Brien. While I would believe some of those guys are on very good salaries, I'd really struggle to think some of them are on half that amount.

Does that sound remotely right?

And bear in mind, I don’t think the numbers I’m assuming above are close to the mark.

Alternative: If Leinster are only paying 10 guys €450k pa, and the Academy lads are on €15k pa, and that Tier C above are on €85k pa, then the 24 guys left are earning on average €341k pa.

There is no way to make these numbers work in my opinion.

arsebiscuits1 · 12-01-2023 11:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097479#Comment_120097479

Welp I'm bookmarking this for future reference lol.

The wage bill is just pedalled by lazy journalism.

Don't forget we would have 2 Marquee players outside of this salary cap. Assume Furlong and Sexton and that gives you another million to work with.

There is increments and international players will get more etc. But like you said. Provincial rugby players do not get a huge amount of money.

Someone like Ross Molony is uncapped but a senior Leinster player. He'd be lucky to be on more than €120k and is probably on far south of it. Similar was the case for the likes of Rory O'Loughlin.

One thing that is never covered in salary descriptions and I'd be interested to see if it is a factor also match fees. Internationally Irish players get around 7k per game. You'd expect the central contract lads to be playing about 10 games a year internationally so an extra 70k. I wonder is this factored in the reports of "player X is reported to earn 400k per annum type" reports

Also a fascinating read here. Seems more a blog post than an article but some interesting numbers in it nonetheless https://rugbydome.com/how-much-do-ireland-rugby-players-earn/

Quin_Dub · 12-01-2023 11:16am

Also - The Academy players get paid very very little , it's in the order of €9k to €10k.

In effect it's supposed to replace the part time job most Students would have as these guys are training instead of doing 15-20 hours a week in Tesco or working behind a bar etc.

If they get some 1st team game time they might get a bit extra , but the Academy contracts are tiny.

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

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