Cork Area Commuter Rail (CACR)

marno21 wrote: »

Consultants to be appointed this month for the Cork Suburban Rail project. Here's what was proposed in CMATS:

8 new stations at Blarney, Monard, Kilbarry, Tivoli, Dunkettle (P&R), Carrigtwohill West, Water Rock & Ballynoe.
10km of double tracking between Glounthane & Midleton
Electrification of the network
10 min frequency Glounthane-Midleton/Cobh, 5 min frequency Kent-Glounthane, 10 min frequency Kent-Blarney
22 new 2 car train sets required
62km of overall network

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40290341.html

Wow that would be fantastic! Surprised the electrification was even suggested.

Peregrine wrote: »

Yes, electrification by 2040.

Some improvements are planned to be finished by 2031 and the remaining by 2040. Absolute joke.

Corkonians should be calling for the CART to be finished by 2030!

Ah, like the 1973 Dublin Rail Plan... Even so, folks in Cork can't complain about being left behind for Dublin anymore as they'll be just as lied to.

marno21 wrote: »

Consultants to be appointed this month for the Cork Suburban Rail project. Here's what was proposed in CMATS:

8 new stations at Blarney, Monard, Kilbarry, Tivoli, Dunkettle (P&R), Carrigtwohill West, Water Rock & Ballynoe.
10km of double tracking between Glounthane & Midleton
Electrification of the network
10 min frequency Glounthane-Midleton/Cobh, 5 min frequency Kent-Glounthane, 10 min frequency Kent-Blarney
22 new 2 car train sets required
62km of overall network

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-40290341.html

2040 is such an unambitious timeline to deliver network improvements - it's actually embarrassingly slow given the wider context and need to drive sustainable solutions now. Anyway I don't think those things will actually be delivered even by 2040. In reality I would expect the following to actually happen by then:

New stations in Blarney, Kilbarry and Water Rock,
No double tracking to Midleton,
No electrification,
Maybe 20 minute frequency - no chance of 5/10 minute frequency,
Some new sets.

20 years to basically electrify and SLOW DOWN trains from Cobh. Marvelous.

Now granted, you can see why, as they are adding extra stations, but its still a bit nuts really. Increased line speeds please.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

They should push ahead with Blarney station and Dunkettle P&R as individual projects, not as part of the large project which is going to take years to advance. They should be straightforward and have the existing passing trains stop at them. Maybe I am wrong in this assumption but I would have thought they'd be easy from signalling, etc pov as trains previously stopped in these locations.

Dunkettle P&R really should be opening with the completion of the interchange works, once people start using the freeflow interchange it will be much harder to win them over to pt, even if it is faster.

They should but they probably won't. This article from 2006 says the Dunkettle P&R would open in 2008. :pac: It's this sort of stuff that makes me very pessimistic about what will be delivered under CMATS. So many promises go undelivered.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20013741.html

"The park-and-ride facility — which is set to become operational in conjunction with the reopening of the commuter rail line in 2008"

Agreed, the time line is a pure humiliation. Commuter rail was electrified across Europe by the 1950s, this will put Cork about 90 years behind the continent in this regard. The plan it's self is also unambitous. No plans for new commuter lines in the next 20 years? Somehow, according to government policy, we're supposed to get near carbon neutrality by 2050 without a single new rail line in the whole country? how could that be?

bk wrote: »

Electric Vehicles, given Irelands very rural and dispersed population, it will be the primary way to decarbonise our transport sector. Rail will play it's part of course, along with Electric/Hyrdrogen buses and coaches, but it isn't realistic to think that we could build rail to every corner of Ireland and replace cars, given our population dispersion.

Ireland 2040 sets out a strategy of urbanising the population over the next 20 years, something which is happening anyway although currently in an unplanned way. The proportion of people living in rural areas will continue to decline.

Nobody is advocating for rail 'to every corner of Ireland'. But the exact opposite of that, no new rail is hardly conducive to a low carbon society/economy. In this context suburban rail in a metropolitan area is hardly 'every corner of Ireland'.

Electrification of transport has a role to play but the vast bulk of heavy lifting in reducing emissions from transport is by reducing the need for transport and making that transport as sustainable as possible, i.e. having more people live closer to work and amenities. At the end of the day not every family will be able to afford an electric car and that wouldn't be desireable from a planning or environmental perspective anyway.

bk wrote: »

First of all EV's won't be any more expensive then petrol/diesel cars are today. In fact in the next 10 years, they are expected to become cheaper. If a family can afford a car today, they can afford an EV in future.

For those who can't afford a car, they will continue to walk/cycle and take buses, trams and trains just like they do today, though hopefully all will be electric/hydorgen buses or trains.

I agree that we will continue to see our cities grow, but realistically we will also see the population in rural Ireland continue to grow too.

Working From Home has become big under Covid and will continue, National Broadband Scheme and just how unaffordable housing in our cities has become will unfortunately all force people out into dispersed one off rural homes.

It sucks and is a complete failure of our planning process and political leadership. But unfortunately I don't expect it to radically change any time soon.

Don't get me wrong, I mostly agree with you. But just that realistically the main focus on de-carbonising our transport will be EV's.

I don't think it's realistic for every western world family to have at least one EV. given the scarcity of the elements needed to build the batteries required. Also owning a fossil fuel car is becoming increasingly unafordable, particularly for young people. The number of people aged 17 to 24 with a drivers license has been declining steadily. I could forsee communities sharing cars as an affordable method of rural mobility.

Also rural Ireland is not growing it's shrinking and that's likely to continue, some councils are now very strict (although not enough of them) on rural house building, not to mention the shrinking employment opportunities in rural areas. Remote working is great and all but post pandemic, I can't see it being a permanent solution, maybe most will do a half and half.

In a Cork context if the focus will be on EVs, it will just leave us in the same position we are today. Swapping ICE vehicles for EVs means similar levels of traffic with the same number or even more cars on the roads. Sure we'll be "carbon neutral" but at what cost - same old same traffic on the roads. Kind of depressing really.

The proposals for Cork suburban rail are utterly unambitious and the timelines are, frankly, embarrassing.

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Yeah there needs to be a NRR.
Northern Distributor can wait for a nice while yet. But the N40 South is a lost cause. They need to forget about upgrading it and start thinking about how they're going to get short distance commuters off it.

With regards suburban rail:
A commute between Mahon/Blackrock/Douglas and Little Island/Glanmire/Carrigtohill is single-option transport system right now. It's cars only. There is no joined-up transport solution other than cars. If there was a tram to Mahon, connecting with Kent, a new Dunkettle P&R and an actual way for people to get to Carrigtohill train station that didn't involve jumping into a ditch it would make a dent. Good news though: for now we have prioritised....more cars on the N40. A few more sticking plasters should cure it!

CMATS and BusConnects "should" allow for a connection from Carrigtwohill to Douglas via the proposed Dunkettle P&R and a Bus corridor from Dunkettle via the JLT to Mahon, Douglas. The pedestrian/cycle access to Carrigtwohill train station seriously needs to be sorted out but I believe that is planned for once the road through Castlelake is completed and the schools are up and running (still a few years away though).

Does this mean it'll happen sooner than 2040?

does that definitely include electrification?

Could someone explain to me how Kent is not already a "through station".

Or is this just the construction of a platform designated for through traffic, whereas at present they all terminate at Kent. Presumably due to intercity and commuter traffic going on the same line?

As I thought, thanks namloc1980

Does the Dunkettle P&R miss the cut or is that part of the road project?

Am I correct in thinking that the original line between Glounthaune and Midleton was always double track and that when the line was reopened that some genius decided to make it a single track, after taking up those double tracks.

Is that single track now in the center of where the double track used to be or by any chance did anyone use some foresight?

namloc1980 wrote: »

This is what it appears it actually includes:

- construction of a through platform at Kent Station,
- line doubling between Glounthaune and Midleton,
- re-signalling,

It doesn't appear to include electrification or any new stations. Examiner jumping the gun.

I'm absolutely no expert on this but that doesn't seem like a lot for 185 million? How much is the entire suburban rail upgrade supposed to cost?

You don't need protracted and expensive consultants for projects like Cork, which are by international standards very straightforward. Once you have the technical specifications worked out the project should be doable in 5 years. A critical decision will be on the electrical system to be used: 3kv DC like the DART or 25kv AC which is standard for long-distance lines. My view would be go for 25kv AC which would tie in with future Dublin-Cork electrification (which in present circumstances should not be regarded as utopian)

We are really backward in this area. Portugal (the poorest country in Western Europe) began 25kv AC electrification of much of the Lisbon Area suburban lines in 1957. They then extended electrification north to Porto, which was reached in 1966, a distance of 330km or 200 miles. Shows you what you can do if you get your act together, even under a supposedly frugal conservative like Dr Salazar!

marno21 wrote: »

The track is in the centre of the permanent way. Rather unfortunate.

Important to note that this line opened in 2009 so 12 years later it’s obsolete, and in the meantime we’ve had a massive recession and a global pandemic and it’s still obsolete.

At the time of the re-opening of the Glounthaune to Midleton commuter line, many were saying it would never work etc, Now the route is very busy and popular and a significant population growth since 2009. Great that it's expanding the capacity. The new station at Blackpool is great for the Northside as well.

Economics101 wrote: »

You don't need protracted and expensive consultants for projects like Cork, which are by international standards very straightforward. Once you have the technical specifications worked out the project should be doable in 5 years. A critical decision will be on the electrical system to be used: 3kv DC like the DART or 25kv AC which is standard for long-distance lines. My view would be go for 25kv AC which would tie in with future Dublin-Cork electrification (which in present circumstances should not be regarded as utopian)

We are really backward in this area. Portugal (the poorest country in Western Europe) began 25kv AC electrification of much of the Lisbon Area suburban lines in 1957. They then extended electrification north to Porto, which was reached in 1966, a distance of 330km or 200 miles. Shows you what you can do if you get your act together, even under a supposedly frugal conservative like Dr Salazar!

We should have completed this work around the end of WW2 but here we are. And unlike Portugal in the 60s we've seen that residents can get infrastructure projects blocked. The regime in Portugal at the time wasn't asking anyone for their thoughts and feelings in 3 or 4 rounds of public consultation.

We could upgrade the line quickly and cheaply but we'll have to make a meal out of it, hear all the objections have a tender process and build a half and half solution that pleases nobody. Then redevelop after a decade of economic growth.

In reply to cgcsb and L1011: I know that this is getting a bit beyond the Cork Commuter area, but we need to do just a little strategic thinking.

The reference I made to Portugal in the 50s and 60s was obviously not the whole story. They have extended electrification right up to 2021, line by line, and the system is now over 75% electrified. Spain is another interesting example, and in fact almost every mainland European country has largely electrified rail networks, often including fairly lightly-trafficked lines. The real scandal is that the UK and Ireland are total outliers when it comes to rail electrification.

RE Portugal again, SOREFAME is no longer all that relevant and I think their main plant no longer functions. What is relevant is that CP have re-opened closed railway workshops and are re-conditioning used passenger stock (aged anything from 15 to 60 years). In Ireland we seem hooked on gold-plated solutions.

I have my doubts about battery except in limited circumstances. Hydrogen is not yet really proven in service. Why is there such resistance to putting up the wires? Its old well tried technology and EMUs are much more economical to operate than the alternatives.

It's a total farce though that just 12 years after (re)opening the Glounthaune to Midleton line that millions now have to be spent on it to double track it. Just 12 years later! Not surprising but quite embarrassing.