Roderic O’G: Transgender issues added to primary curriculum

Guess_Who · 12-01-2023 7:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097115#Comment_120097115

I think there are an infinite amount of genders and I think that they each are as valid and important as the next when it comes to defining what a man or a woman is.

By that I mean not at all.

Black Sheep · 12-01-2023 8:06am

It would be absurd alright to suggest marriage is simply a legal fiction on a par with identifying as genderqueer, gendervoid, omnigender, genderfuck, pangender and so on....

Whether it's for you or not, marriage is an institution with a huge weight of social and legal tradition behind it.

I'd question whether the identities being generated by modern gender studies will still be in use in 50 years let alone beyond that. I guess we will see.

But yeah, sometimes as the saying goes, "the law is an ass" and I suspect that was the meaning intended.

There's always the possibility of further clarity on any law being established down the road by the courts, or outright repeal.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-01-2023 8:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097189#Comment_120097189

Christ almighty I was going to say as many as there are people on the planet, but thpight youd start screaming atv me who stupid i was and i really didn't have the energy for a long off topic debate on it.

Speaking of which, why's it relevant?

One eyed Jack · 12-01-2023 10:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097198#Comment_120097198

Whether it's for you or not, marriage is an institution with a huge weight of social and legal tradition behind it.

Whether it’s for you or not, human civilisation precedes marriage by at least a couple of millennia, and human evolution precedes civil law by at least a couple of millennia again.

Yet still Irish law persists in only recognising the institution of the Family as created through marriage, meaning that unmarried couples are not regarded in Irish law as a family, which has obvious repercussions when it comes to the protection in Irish law of any children who are born to unmarried couples.

It’s true though that there is always the possibility of clarification and bringing Irish law into line with European Human Rights law, in the same manner as was achieved with the enactment of the Gender Recognition Act. Given Scotland just passed the Gender Recognition Reform bill to allow for self-identification, I don’t imagine Ireland will be repealing the Act any time soon, particularly when all reforms suggested are about expanding the provisions of the Act so that more people are protected under it’s provisions.

Guess_Who · 12-01-2023 10:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097249#Comment_120097249

Because in order to claim that you are in supporter of transrecognition (The recognition that anyone can identify as their true self and be protected and accepted as such), you would have to give as much credence and education when teching "what it means to be transgender", to include people who identify as a f*ckgender/astralgender with the same sincerity as you would to people who identify as a transwoman. Otherwise you are absolutely not teaching children what being transgender means, which is what Roderic claims to want to do.

Most people who claim to be an ally to transpeople only focus on the genders that align to the two binary sexes, which makes it a nonsense and why "what it means to be trans" is at best, severely misguided.

Nobody can know what it like to "feel like a woman" because people either are women or they aren't. No two women's feelings about their identity is the same.

The only thing that is consistent is their biology, not their mental state.

Black Sheep · 12-01-2023 10:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097356#Comment_120097356

I'll happily acknowledge it's speculative on my part, but I do believe the efforts made to transpose gender identity theory into law will eventually be rolled back, yes.

I listed some of the new genders earlier partly because when we actually write out loud and interrogate some of the concepts involved, they sound a bit absurd really - which is why a lot of people become a bit grumpy when they're actually put out in the light of day.

The erosion of sex-based rights in transposing gender in place of sex into law is a mistake which will impact everything from fairness in womens' sports, to safety in womens' prisons, to ensuring continued single sex services for those who desire these things.

It even goes to the meaningful sex-based collection of statistical data on topics such as rates of criminal offending and types of crime committed.

It's regrettable that legislators, in conjunction with lobbyists, have ran far beyond what there is public support for. It will undoubtedly make it harder to unpick. But I think reasonable to believe that was the intention all along. I'm glad what people refer to as the era of "no debate" appears to be over, however.

To link this to the topic of the thread at hand - in view of the above, certainly caution needs to be taken when it comes to what is taught to young children on this topic, and whether it's really necessary at all.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-01-2023 10:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097424#Comment_120097424

Now why did I have to ask you that three times?

Guess_Who · 12-01-2023 11:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097520#Comment_120097520

I've been remarkably consistent about my stance through out the thread.

I'm pretty sure that everything in my last post was already mentioned before.

And it's a little rich to insinuate that I was hesitant to answer any questions, when I have been very forthcoming. I haven't avoided any questions.

What question was it that I refused to answer on two previous occassions?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-01-2023 11:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097249#Comment_120097249

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096770#Comment_120096770

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120096784#Comment_120096784

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097649#Comment_120097649

See above.

Guess_Who · 12-01-2023 11:43am

Oh right, I had made that point a lot during the course of the thread.

My point is that it is nigh on impossible to teach children what it means to be transgender because it is a matter of feeling rather than biology.

I find it hypocritical that only the two binary sex genders are legally recognised genders.

I find it also hypocritical that people say that there is a difference between transgenderism and transexualism when it suits, but then call back to the law which states that there is in fact no difference.

I find it silly that people claim to be an ally for transgenderism when they can't definitively state how many genders they believe to exist. You can't approve and support something so nebulus without holding yourself liable to be supporting something you find distasteful.

I don't believe that there is the place of the state to educate children, especially primary school children, about matters such as this, when it is absolutely not fact based.

You have mentioned that you have no idea what it is to be transgender, as you aren't transgender yourself. How would that work in a classroom setting? Should they have a transperson come in and give a talk? Would that not be exceptionally narrow view on transgenderism and would you need to bring in a plethora of different trans people who have gone through vastly different experiences?

What does it means to be transgender? I agree, you can't answer that.

What does it mean to be a woman? You COULD answer that, but according to your signature, that's a question that isn't relevant.

So why is what it means to be transgender relevant?

Black Sheep · 12-01-2023 11:46am

TENI have been upfront about wanting to expand the recognised genders to include non binary, I think it's likely they'd take an expansive view into the future. I agree if you accept some of the basic theory they have to take that view.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-01-2023 3:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097725#Comment_120097725

Someone asked what I thought should be taught, and that's what I answered.

You don't need to go into every aspect of transgneder, what it means and every other gender under the sun to teach it to kids. A lot of us have know what transgender means and some know what it entails (I do have a few transgender friends - although I've never discussed it with at length, if I wanted to they'd be more than accomodating) and yet we've never gone and done courses in it or researched ALL the different genders out there. There are kids out there who understrand it because they're difrectly effected by it, either by having a transgneder family member or friend in the family social circle, or they've seen movies with transgedner people in them, e.g. Elliot Page.

Nor do I have to know what should be on the course to be in favour of the idea. Or have a relevant qualification to prescribe a syllabus. Plenty of people are in favour of compulsory Irish, but don't speak irish.

As for the "what is a woman" in the signature - I've explained that: someone asks that in every transgender thread, and then that's it - end of discussion. One side claiming that it's whatever the person want s it to be, there other saying that if you're born with a vagina, you're a woman. Cue pages of bickering, fighting and insults followed by threadbans and no one knows what the original topic was about. I refuse to answer because no one benefits from that. In any case, it doesn't matter unless the person is trying to prove transgender doesn't exist, which is a bit like saying the earth is flat and not an argument I waste energy on.

Guess_Who · 12-01-2023 3:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097733#Comment_120097733

TENI don't actually explain what THEY consider a gender, and specifically what genders they are championing.

Are we to accept that transGENDER individuals only refer to people who believe they are the opposite binary sex (eg male to female, female to male)?

How can you want to expand to different genders, when it is widely accepted that there is no specific criterion that you need to meet to declare yourself a gender?

I mean, a transwoman obviously identifies as what we know to be a woman (i.e. a female) and a transman identifies as a man (i.e. a male). But as we have seen, genders can and do, refer to people outside of those two.

How can that work?

The only possible explanation I can see that would make any sense is to give an option of "male" "female" & "other" but that in itself causes an issue.

And yes, I know this is taking it to an extreme, but it is being done to make a point... what if someone's gender identified them as an animal (dog, cat, horse, cow etc)?

Should that be recognised? If not, why not?

How can we say, in all honesty, that their belief is any more or any less valid than someone who is biologically female who has a genuine belief they are a biological male?

Guess_Who · 12-01-2023 3:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098678#Comment_120098678

You are again, almost right, when it comes to the flat earth analogy.

If someone came up to me and said the world was flat, I would give them proof that it wasn't. I would also discount what they said if they weren't willing to back it up with provable evidence or at the very least, a compelling argument based on fact rather than feelings.

I am not saying that this flat earther doesn't exist. I am saying that their belief is not true. And provably so. I am not denying they exist. I am just saying that what they believe isn't true, despite how much they believe it. I have no issue with them believing what they do. But don't compel me to have to say I agree or accept it.

Much the same way as a male coming to me and saying "I am female".

I am not saying they do not exist. I am saying that their belief is not true. And provably so. I am not denying they exist. I am just saying that what they believe isn't true, despite how much they believe it. I have no issue with them believing what they do. But don't compel me to have to say I agree or accept it.

Canterelle · 12-01-2023 3:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120097733#Comment_120097733

What are the non-binary genders?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-01-2023 3:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098732#Comment_120098732

The problem is, they don't accept proof. That's the entire problem. Their attitude is "**** proof, **** science - what I believe is right!"

Also to clarify - I wasn't implying you in the last paragraph of that previous post.

Guess_Who · 12-01-2023 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098829#Comment_120098829

"The problem is, they don't accept proof. That's the entire problem. Their attitude is "**** proof, **** science - what I believe is right!"

Now please tell me how that isn't the absolute premise of transgenderism and Self ID?

Annasopra · 12-01-2023 4:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098732#Comment_120098732

You dont have to believe anything. The problem is that you dont want trans people to be in anyway legally recognised as who they are. You want others compelled legally to your viewpoint.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-01-2023 4:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098842#Comment_120098842

Oh, I'm not saying it isn't - I'm saying the moment I encounter that in a debate regardless of where it comes from, I get off. It's not what people believe, it's te extremist lengths they'll go to defned it even when it's untenable. And I've encountered it with left, right, woke, poplulist, conspiracy theorist, activist, alt-, religious, natoinalist.... everything.

No group is immune to it.

Guess_Who · 12-01-2023 4:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098898#Comment_120098898

I completely understand where you are coming from. It's rife on social media

But in this particular scenario, on this specific topic, only one side do not care about facts or about science.

I have no hatred towards trans people. Anyone feeling like they are not comfortable in their own skin have nothing except my sympathy and my very best wishes.

That doesn't mean that I need to believe or to encourage that their feeling (as real as it may be to them) is in any way rooted in actual provable reality.

And for this reason, I don't think it's possible or acceptable for the state to try to "educate" children what it means to be transgender.

Guess_Who · 12-01-2023 4:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098864#Comment_120098864

Thats not true.

That is your bad faith interpretation of what my stance is.

Do you think that transgender people actually change into the biological sex that they wish to be by virtue of receiving a certificate?

The legal stance is moot.

Would you tell a transman that they are as much of a male as a biological male? Or would you tell them that they can be a man, but they would always be a biological female?

yourdeadwright · 12-01-2023 4:36pm

It's simple if a trans women was a real women , we would not be putting the word Trans in front of women ,

Trans people have every right to be who the want to be and feel how they want to be & most importantly be happy but that does not change reality or science

If a Transwomen wants to be legally recognised as transwomen then there should be absolutely no problem with that at all , But a transwomen being legally recognised as a women is simply a false reality of make believe ,

Don't blame me its simple science

Annasopra · 12-01-2023 4:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099025#Comment_120099025

They are legally recognised though.

Annasopra · 12-01-2023 4:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098966#Comment_120098966

I dont tell trans people anything about how they should or shouldnt identify. Its not my place to tell anyone they are wrong. I recognise the lived reality of trans people.

The legal stance isnt moot. Trans people exist and have a legal right to assert their gender identity.

Trans people go through various aspects of transition; social, medical, legal.

Guess_Who · 12-01-2023 4:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099060#Comment_120099060

No. Two sets of trans people have a right. Transmen and transwomen. There are countless more types of genders.

Unless you believe that other genders are somehow less valid.

I keep making this point and you keep ignoring it.

As for recognising "lived reality", where does that end for you? Is it only for trans people or is it for any people who suffer from body dysmorphia or people who genuinely believe they are something they provably aren't?

If it's only trans people, why?

It's a very simple question.

GreeBo · 12-01-2023 4:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094687#Comment_120094687

I strongly disagree that "we all know transpeople exist"

I would argue that we all know there are people who believe or want to believe that they are of a different gender.

That's very different to me believing that they are of a different gender.

I know that there are people who believe the earth is flat, that doesnt mean that I know that the earth is flat.

yourdeadwright · 12-01-2023 4:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099038#Comment_120099038

Doesn't mean its right,

An example if a lad meet a women on a night out & done the deed & later found out the women was a transwomen, IS that ok for them not to have disclosed that information , ? They have no legal obligations because they are legal a women ?

There inability to tell the difference between reality & there own feelings should not be able to effect someone else's life,.

yourdeadwright · 12-01-2023 4:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099060#Comment_120099060

Is there other parts of your life where you are willing to over look reality or biology just because someone's feelings ?

Or is it just when it comes to gender its ok to ignore factual reality ,

Now im not saying we shouldn't be inclusive & welcoming to everyone, Everyone can live there life in a happy & safe environment but we should also be able to be draw a line at reality ,facts, biology ,

Guess_Who · 12-01-2023 4:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099060#Comment_120099060

In what other aspect of life would you think this was acceptable?

If someone younger than you identified as being your father, would you accept that it is their lived reality? No. Because you know it is not true.

If someone genuinely believed they were a cat, would you accept that they should be seen by a vet?

If someone genuinely believed that they were a giant, despite being 5ft 10, would you agree with them?

If someone who committed a murder, but genuinely believed they didn't, said they were innocent, would you be ok with them going free?

A feeling or belief, no matter how genuine and heartfelt it is, isn't always true. Which is why we rely on facts and proof. Not "lived experience".

Why is it only trans people whose lived experience you give special treatment to?

GreeBo · 12-01-2023 4:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094785#Comment_120094785

If you want to say that a trans person is someone who thinks/believes they are a different gender, then I'm fine with that.

We have names for all sorts of things.

Its when you try to tell me that they are what they believe I have a problem. (and indeed you have a problem, since you cant define what it is they think they are or are not)

Roderic O’G: Transgender issues added to primary curriculum

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