Galway traffic

xckjoo · 11-01-2023 1:06pm

Slower speeds should improve throughput at the junctions.

what_traffic · 11-01-2023 2:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120093567#Comment_120093567

Space? Car park beside Jurys?

Most vehicles are only doing 30kmph here during the daytime/evenings anyhow except taxis in the early hours of the morning. It should be locked in at 30kph considering the footfall here anyhow.

what_traffic · 11-01-2023 2:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120090341#Comment_120090341

Dock Road is 50kmph but Merchants Road is 30kmph. Very similar road layouts. Really should have a 30kmph from the Radission inbound all the way out towards Fr Griffin/Sea Road junction. The zone map is somewhat misleading in that it gives impression the Zone is much larger than it is as the perimeter road of the zone is 50kmph. Much of this perimeter road should be 30kmph. The Claddagh, Lower Salthill and Shantalla could easily be included in the Zone as well.

11-01-2023 3:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094061#Comment_120094061

The ongoing problem with the dock rd is the council have zero control over it as its owned by the Port company. Now its possible, as the main shareholder, that they could direct the Port to change it, but I'm guessing they won't go that route until the 30k limit gets more traction

Unrealistic · 11-01-2023 5:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120093235#Comment_120093235

Thanks for pointing that out. It was before I'd moved back to Galway and I'd forgotten about it.

Unrealistic · 11-01-2023 5:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120093479#Comment_120093479

I thought that at first too, but apparently they want to extend the 30km/h zone out the Dyke Road, beyond the Qunicentary Bridge, to have it cover that stretch where you have the crooked bridge besides the old waterworks, the stretch with no footpath, and the narrowing at the corner of the football grounds. That seems like a sensible proposal to me.

The map is confusing because, when applied to a narrow stretch like that, the yellow shading with a red border used to identify the 30km/h is virtually indistinguishable from the orange used to identify 100km/h roads.

thebackbar · 11-01-2023 5:43pm

Does anyone know when the next decision is due regarding the Galway ring road? The communication from the council has been appalling

rustyfrog · 11-01-2023 6:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095120#Comment_120095120

I think it's still with ABP to re-review? Communications are poor from there too, deadlines have been pushed many times at the last moment.

rustyfrog · 11-01-2023 6:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120093567#Comment_120093567

The Lough Atalia to Fr Griffin road border being 30kph vs 50kph is a journey time difference of 2mins 24secs. Assuming travelling at the speed limit with no traffic delays.

Hardly effectively closing the route.

11-01-2023 7:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095120#Comment_120095120

Last update was when ABP told the court they wouldn't contest the challenge that they hadn't taken the Climate Action Plan into account when giving approval.

There's been nothing further beyond the following, still waiting for it to come back before the court

It was not immediately clear whether this meant a new application would be submitted to An Bord Pleanála, a process that could take two years. Because the case was still before the court, the three bodies said it would “not be appropriate” to comment further.

Asked what happens next, An Bord Pleanála said that was a matter for the court to decide, having heard the views of case participants. The case returns to court three weeks from Monday. “Where the court makes an order quashing a board planning decision, it also has the power to then remit the planning case back to the board for a new decision if it considers that appropriate,” the planning authority said.

To be honest, my guess is ABP, the councils et al are all discussing how to rescue it. Without some significant shenanigans I can't see how that might be done

what_traffic · 12-01-2023 1:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095459#Comment_120095459

What kind of shenanigans do ya think they may try to pull off here? Have we any recent examples nationwide?

Don Juan II · 12-01-2023 1:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120095459#Comment_120095459

I see you qouted the Irish Times from the 14th Oct 2022 @[Deleted User]

Did the case return to the court "three weeks from Monday"? And if so, what was the outcome?

12-01-2023 2:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098084#Comment_120098084

No idea but I'm basing it on how long it's been since it was due back, it should not be taking this long to close out

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098141#Comment_120098141

No, not returned yet

It's purely a guess on my part but with ABP acknowledging that they will not win by contesting the challenge means there are almost no options left to rescue this application.

Given that, its strange that the case has not come back to the court yet and I can only conclude that all involved are investigating every possible avenue to try rescue it.

I don't see how that can be done unless, as I said, there's some shenanigans but then those would likely collapse under legal challenge also.

Personally I don't mind how long they drag it out for as I think they have no option but to start again.

Given how long the last application took I would see them breaking ground until the 2040's

Let's say something like this for any potential re-run

2023 start new design and application, public consultation etc etc etc
2029 application submitted
2031 application approved
2032 legal challenges begin at high court
2036 supreme Court hearings
2037 referral to EU courts
2039 EU decision
2040 back to supreme court, let's say its fully approved
2041 cabinet approval
2042 PSC review (how it could pass this while adhering to climate action goals is beyond me)
2043 goes to tender
2044 tender awarded
2046 contractors ready to start
2049 Road opens

Give or take a few years here or there, I think that's a pretty realistic timeline

Then again any new application is likely to fail when stacked against the climate action plans so I think its safe to say that this road is a dead duck.

Something else to consider is the effect this is having on the properties under the scope of CPO's. They have been stuck in legal limbo for a decade at this point.

12-01-2023 4:34pm

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/133460/advocates-welcome-promise-of-30-km-speed-limits-outside-schools

The community group also points out that the proposed 30 km per hour inner city zone will enable the council to - quickly and cheaply - install more zebra and raised courtesy pedestrian crossings.

Researchers at Princeton University recently found that three out of every four drivers yield to a pedestrian in a basic crosswalk at 30 km per hour. At 50 km per hour, that rate drops to one in eight drivers. Lower speed limits lead to calm sharing of the roads.

“The new pedestrian crossing with lights at Salthill’s Blackrock is very welcome, yet it shows the huge amount of time and money it takes to install something so needed. If the Prom had a speed limit of 30 km per hour, the council would have the freedom to scatter zebra crossings like confetti at multiple points between the diving tower and Grattan Road,” said Ms Callanan.

The Executive’s promise of a full review of speed limits on all city and suburban streets is also welcome.

“Within a year, residents living along Clybaun and Shantalla roads to Merlin Lane and Ballybane Road could also reap the benefits that a 30 km per hour speed limit brings,” said Mr Jennings. “Galway is at the beginning of a journey to transform our streets to make them safer and more accessible for all ages and abilities, whether you walk, cycle, or take the bus.”

ratracer · 12-01-2023 4:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120098350#Comment_120098350

I feel very sorry for those people whose homes are affected by the CPO issue.

They can’t sell their houses ( who’d be nuts enough to buy? ), don’t know whether they should put money into renovations/ modernisation etc as all is pending their house potentially being razed to the ground, yet how many years are they waiting now? They are stuck in a dreadful limbo!!

12-01-2023 6:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099085#Comment_120099085

Aye and if round 3 happens, it'll condemn most of them to another decade of it

12-01-2023 6:54pm

Make no mistake, there will be a Ring Road political movement until it or a successor gets built. (Not me, I've been successfully deterred.) Without significant population/vehicle ownership decrease (which I don't see happening outside of authoritarian seizures of property) there'll be new generations of "uneducated" doing what they can to push for it or its successor.

zell12 · 12-01-2023 7:53pm

City population is forecast to be ~125k by 2040, never mind the county. The traffic scenario is going to get much worse

12-01-2023 8:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099934#Comment_120099934

There has never been a point in time, in my life anyway, that traffic was not abysmal in Galway

The city population grew by 50% from 1991 (50k) to 2011 (75k). Its now slightly over 83k per the last census and as you say projected out to 125k by 2040.

Simply put the current city road network can't cope with the cars for its current population and won't cope with a higher population either, regardless of a ring road as planning doc's illustrated that the majority of Galways traffic starts and ends inside the city boundary. A ring road will not help that and will only push congestion further out as drivers use the ring road as a distributor.

Ring road or no, without significant modal shift, congestion in Galway will not improve

what_traffic · 12-01-2023 9:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100071#Comment_120100071

I would not agree with this statement;

"

Simply put the current city road network can't cope with the cars for its current population

"

has it ever been tested?

the issue City has had for many decades is not the no of City residents per se within the boundary driving- the problem is the sheer volume of vehicles (added to the City residents) coming into the City from outside the City boundary.

Solution is still the same. Without significant modal shift, congestion in Galway City will not improve. So either modal shift of all the City residents onto other modes so that our Rurban brothers and sisters can drive on the current City network or else get a significant portion of those Rurban drivers into other modes as well.

Ruhanna · 12-01-2023 9:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099934#Comment_120099934

Not necessarily. Traffic congestion is self-limiting, the flip-side of building more highways. The more space for driving, the more people drive. Less space, less driving. It's just normal behavior. People who absolutely need or want to drive will do so even at rush hour. Others will wait until the roads are quieter. I guess the same applies at population level. Do you hate driving in heavy traffic? Don't come to live or work in Galway, or else find a different way to travel. Do you absolutely insist on driving all the time? Fine, go live and work somewhere else. As the population grows, the roads will not just fill up with more and more automobiles. That's not the way it works, IF your city decides not to build more highways.

rustyfrog · 12-01-2023 10:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120099934#Comment_120099934

The need to cater for a growing population is one of the strongest arguments not to go with the ring road as the solution.

12-01-2023 11:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120100316#Comment_120100316

Without significant modal shift, congestion in Galway City will not improve

Yeah that's what I meant. As for where the modal shift should come from, I'd say both urban and rural and even rurban (never heard that one).

So long as there are viable options, who uses them doesn't really matter so long as they lead to a shift

13-01-2023 7:28am

The kind of modal shift you’d need though is only going to come from some very authoritarian national measures. I’m talking moving Driver licencing from ability to ownership, that the default would be ownership being illegal without a licence like a firearm. That’s not a runner. If people can own, they will. They hear rabble rabble rabble from activists and give no heed to them.

And we have geography, weather, and transport network against us. We are a hilly country with narrow winding roads, a rural population with a *historical genocidal precedent* for depopulation. which makes advocating for more rural-to-urban difficult, we have weather that regularly threatens our health if we cannot stay indoors from it (never mind the infirm & disabled) and our transport is designed for East-West not North -South. We’re talking never seeing parts of the country again because what was a two hour journey becomes six to seven to conform to the Public Service. Parts of the country become Multi-Day activities, and so for working people without funds for overnight stays/responsibilities they do not travel there ever again. You try to sell that to people, good luck.

Advocacy will get you some of the way, but not enough. You would need a green Putin to crack the whip, and there will be resistance to that.

xckjoo · 13-01-2023 9:26am

People will generally pick the path of least resistance. If it's faster and easier to get the bus then that's what people will go for. Specially if it means they could drop an expensive car or two off the household costs

13-01-2023 10:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120101612#Comment_120101612

Like my example where an hour door to door by private becomes three with 1.5km on foot by public, the least resistance wpuld have to become “arrest for driving an unlicenced vehicle” or “legally allowed to get to my destination”.

xckjoo · 13-01-2023 11:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120101804#Comment_120101804

Or drive to the park and ride and get the bus the final leg of your journey for 30min door-to-door.

what_traffic · 13-01-2023 11:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120101046#Comment_120101046

Will this shift be equitable? City folk having to put up with pollution, noise and congestion from vehicular traffic of the County Cousins.

Rurban is the biggest issue I see for Galway. Rural living and urban lifestyle. We have this ribbon rural development around the City in all directions but people's work and lifestyle is in the Galway Urban area is going to be very difficult to disentangle in the years. The neglect of our Galway County towns the past 3 decades has been a big issue in this, I really think should be far more focus on developing the towns around the County. Increase services in those towns in a big way and drastically increase the public transport provision from these towns before going down the P&R from the outskirts of Galway City.

Unrealistic · 13-01-2023 11:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120101474#Comment_120101474

Yes, it makes me so sad how authoritarian the Netherlands and Denmark had to become to achieve their current modal shares. The gulags there for recalcitrant drivers are a humanitarian tragedy.

No, wait, surprise surprise, your 'analysis' is total codswollop, as usual. Car ownership in both countries is higher than in Ireland but a much lower percentage of those cars are driven into city centres and a much higher percentage of journeys are taken by means other than cars. Anyone who wants/needs to drive somewhere can still do so but the number who chose alternatives is high. There are real world examples of how to achieve a changes in modal share, with decades of real life data, so why you feel the need to invent some apocalyptic nonsense is beyond me.

13-01-2023 12:38pm

"County Cousins"

"Apocalyptic nonsense"

Not rising to it lads. No interest. Neither wadabouting nor quoting two countries who were able to do what they did without the hilly landscape, Onshore winds, and history of force rural clearances by landlords that this country endured, isn't a viable response to ,say, the "Salthill Sundays" cohort to give an example.

There's people not on board for Modal shift. and It will take authoritarianist measures for them to adopt it.

Galway traffic

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