Russia - threadbanned users in OP

Wibbs · 15-01-2023 7:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120112428#Comment_120112428

How many were polled for the Times? I don't know. The rest stands.

Gatling · 15-01-2023 7:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120112569#Comment_120112569

No it doesn't.

Again barely 900,000 people voted in the original nice treaty,

30% of the population

Time's have changed along with the population,

We are only neutral in government policy

Wibbs · 15-01-2023 7:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120112419#Comment_120112419

Tanks are significantly more complex than trucks JM. Fire control systems, IR sights, never mind all the moving parts of the gun and loading stuff. Though it looks really bad for Germany if their fleet is actually in that state. It wouldn't surprise me though. I've known a few Germans over the years of different generations and a fair number were ex German military and they told me while some areas were top notch, airforce, special forces and the like in the general military it was often a complete shambles full of lifers racking up years for a pension. One older lad I know who was in the army in the 80's said they were lucky WW3 didn't start. There's also a fair sized element of nazi guilt stuff drummed into them for generations. They seem to have a weird relationship with their military.

Wibbs · 15-01-2023 7:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120112582#Comment_120112582

So, "only" 50% voted to repeal the 8th. You left out that 1.5 million voted in the second Nice referendum and it passed and contained the clause about our neutrality. Do you disagree with those votes?

Show me one poll or indication that the Irish electorate want to drop Ireland's militay neutrality. Good luck with that.

Gatling · 15-01-2023 7:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120112619#Comment_120112619

Yes I disagree with the nice treaty votes ,if I remember correctly neutrality was low on the priority list.

But the important thing is we are only neutral in policy ,that can change from one government to another.

And for the German military why should they have heavily invested in their protection when they have several hundred thousand US soldiers, aircraft,tanks and other military equipment to defend them.

rogber · 15-01-2023 7:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120112339#Comment_120112339

If enough people keep predicting Putin's demise for long enough, I guess the law of averages says someone will get it right eventually.

Furze99 · 15-01-2023 7:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120112408#Comment_120112408

When push comes to shove though Wibbs, our neutrality is a sham. We hide behind the skirts of the Brits and the Yanks and hope that no one would notice us if conflict came this direction. Whether that policy will work if needed is questionable, if needs must we might be allowed to go as collateral damage.

We should be honest about this. Individuals have been honest in the past, WW2 saw many Irishmen and women sign up in Allied forces and put their lives on the line. I certainly have relatives who did just that and I'd reckon there are a great many other Irish families likewise.

Asking Irish people about whether they think we should be neutral is in the same league as the large numbers who profess to be able to speak Irish or those who believe we are the greatest craic on earth etc. Wishful thinking.

Gatling · 15-01-2023 8:01pm

Soledar- over 1000 orcs killed so far and fighting is still ongoing

https://twitter.com/WarMonitor3/status/1614696679256498177?s=20&t=G9TBqUHEVVRidMZzAUh8wA

Gatling · 15-01-2023 8:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120112775#Comment_120112775

I can imagine the Russians standing up at the UN and telling us they haven't given permission for us to send anything

15-01-2023 8:09pm

It's almost as if people are forgetting why Germany's not a military powerhouse in the aftermath of WWII, its disarmament and being split in two. It was quite deliberately made dependent on US, UK, French and NATO defences.

Can you imagine anyone thinking that Germany rearming and becoming a significant military power say in the 1960s would have been in anyway acceptable? Not to mention the Cold War implications and the fact that Germany was split in two.

Building up as a military power is also just something that is probably an anathema to most modern Germans. They have, quite understandably, a fairly serious national revolution to war and a sense of trying to solve things non militarily. It's probably wildly over optimistic in this situation, but there's very little point in haranguing present day Germany for not being a military superpower when it's just not one by design and due to its history.

As for Ireland, it effectively has no military. Our neutrality stance was quite obviously a post independence issue with the UK. We were only 17 years independent, and in the middle of the 'Economic War' when WWII broke out, and there was probably a significant concern that we could lose independence. Also, there was an entirely understandable animosity towards and lack of trust in the UK and British Empire as it then was. So, a pragmatic neutrality, which in reality was not very neutral, when you look at how allied pilots etc were just quietly returned while German POWs were interned for the duration of the war. Also when you look at how intelligence sharing and various supports happened, just without much publicity.

That pragmatic neutrality morphed into something more of a philosophical position by the 1950s and became very much baked in by the 1960s when you start to see Ireland taking part in UN peace keeping missions and so on.

I think though, we do have an issue with not really knowing what we mean by neutrality. We aren't neutral in the Ukraine conflict. There's nothing ambiguous about that. We've been extremely condemnatory of Russia while on the UN security council, we've taken severe sanctions against Russia economically and diplomatically and so on and Russia lists us as a hostile country from their point of view. All you could really describe Ireland's position as is a form of military passivism. Again, it's a bit optimistic to put it mildly in the current situation as there's no way that this is going to be solved diplomatically. While there's no choice but to fight back hard, I also don't really see this being resolved militarily either. It's turning into some kind of War of Attrition. Realistically, it will probably end when Putin's regime implodes, and that's probably going to happen at some point.

As for what military aid we could supply, it seems extremely limited given we've probably one of the least resourced militaries in Europe.

I don't agree with our stance on this. I think we could do more militarily and I think we need to have a proper debate about what exactly our neutrality means, because I really don't think it adds up anymore and we clearly are not neutral.

Our aid contribution, most of which is refugee support could probably be valued at about €3 billion at this stage, which is not insignificant. We're hosting over 70,000 people at the moment.

As for the conspiracy theory that the Russians have some dirt on the HSE and that's preventing the Irish Government moving. That's utter la la land stuff. If they release the patient info, they release it. It was assumed they would anyway. The HSE itself also had utterly abysmal IT and we know that and it's where the focus has mainly gone. There's a massive budget now for upgrading their systems, something that should have happened all along anyway. However, I think the notion we're being blackmailed is really pie in the sky stuff and also assume that the Irish Government is some kind of super-leak proof, all powerful executive presidency - it's a multiparty coalition that leaks like a sieve. It would struggle to even begin to contemplate engaging in a conspiracy that complex!

It also assumes that you could embarrass the public health systems here by showing them to be incompetent at managing things. It would be like a shocking revelation that liquid water is wet.

cnocbui · 15-01-2023 8:14pm

In Soledar, intense fighting continues. The losses of the soldiers of the Russian army in the Bakhmut direction are actually great, they continue to attack our positions literally on the bodies of previously killed Russians, - commented during the telethon "United News" spokesman of the Eastern grouping of troops of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Colonel Serhiy Cherevatyi

According to the spokesman, the hottest part of the front is Bakhmut, Soledar, Klishchiivka, Bakhmutivka, Dispute, and other settlements.

"234 strikes were carried out there by the enemy in a day, there were 32 combat clashes, the enemy lost 119 people killed and 108 wounded only in this direction. In particular, the enemy fired at Soledar himself 70 times with various artillery systems," he said.

Looks like Soledar has not been conceded - Slava Ukraini.

15-01-2023 8:22pm

They'd massive largely totally useless militaries that were basically glorified civil defence. A slight breeze could have taken them out, never mind an actual army.

Yeah, they deserve criticism, but it needs to be realistic criticism.

There's a whole lot of short sighted NIMBYism type stuff behind many of those decisions.

In general I think Europe is full of fair weather friends. We saw that in the financial crisis and we're seeing it again now. Some of it is just lack of structures and resources, but some of it is genuinely just still an 'every one for themselves' mentality when there's a crisis.

It really annoyed me to see the initial scramble for resources when COVID-19 hit and we'd stories of countries trying to hoard supplies and so on. I don't think that bodes well for Europe tbh. It came together in the end, but the initial response from quite a few countries was domestic states of emergency and to hell with the neighbours.

cnocbui · 15-01-2023 8:24pm

Rocket attack on a residential high-rise building in Dnipro: names of 44 people from the 52nd Guards Regiment (Shaykivka) involved in the terrorist attack.

There is also data on family members. Revenge is served cold.

Glad my son didn't take part in firing that missile... Which reminds me, there was a very busy coffin trade exhibition in Moscow only a few months ago.

In Dnipro, the body of another civilian was taken out from under the rubble of a high-rise building, destroyed yesterday by Russians. In total, it is known about 30 dead, - said Natalia Babachenko, adviser to the head of the Dnipropetrovsk OVA, during the "United News" telethon

briany · 15-01-2023 8:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120112768#Comment_120112768

The most likely scenario of Ireland being invaded by a foreign power would be by the UK itself. Historically, the only people who ever invaded Ireland were either those who came from that territory which comprises modern day UK or had a strong foothold there. Strategically, it would be a difficult place to invade and hold without having Britain boxed off to some degree or else having the UK on your side. Failing that, it's just not important or interesting enough to get to in a big and obvious military kind of way, although as a base for espionage would be a different story. Airstrikes on targets within Ireland that could be deemed strategically-significant by enemies would be the biggest concern, i.e. Shannon, but I think that in that event, weapons would be provided to Ireland in order to defend those sites, and it wouldn't be an altruistic gesture by our friends to the east or west, but very much in the interest of protecting their own military assets within Irish territory.

15-01-2023 8:34pm

To be quite honest, I think Ireland's self-image is a bit part of the reason for our lack of any kind of credible defence infrastructure. We still tend to see ourselves as strategically entirely irrelevant and have some notion that nobody would ever wish us any harm. We were irrelevant, certainly in the mid 20th century. Other than as a staging post to maybe enter the UK, and there's no way that would have been allowed, we seemed to be just of the view that we could keep our heads down and nobody would ever pay much attention to us.

However, we've become a lot more relevant as a hub of technology and a growing minor financial centre and so on, as well as being a member of the EU and the Eurozone. We still might not be very relevant, but we're as big a deal as many other smallish EU countries and I don't think we've really had our notion of our place in the world or our defence systems keep pace with that at all.

Our neutrality to me smacks of a 'holier than thou' sort of sentiment in some ways and it's very, very poorly defined. I mean, the Swiss are neutral to the point of being so neutral they'll let harm happen. The nordic countries were neutral largely to fulfil a weird Cold War strategy where they were keeping a non-aligned status quo, but were highly equipped and capable of defending themselves too. Ireland's neutrality is more about just the luxury of being located where we are.

It's a bit like concluding you live in the back of beyond, therefore door locks and security systems are totally unnecessary, until some roving crime gang turns up and you're done over.

I think in many ways that Russian missile test of the SW coast was a massive wake up call. Nowhere's really THAT far away from trouble just because of geography.

macraignil · 15-01-2023 8:40pm

On a more positive note a report that the city of Kreminna is starting to be liberated from the russian invaders.

https://twitter.com/mhmck/status/1614684461404127238?s=46&t=l9QfusWCL8SPAMv_lnWNSQ

cnocbui · 15-01-2023 8:41pm

https://youtu.be/1c9z41qogl8

I know they are not all bad, but it's gotten very hard to give a shit.

cnocbui · 15-01-2023 8:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120112895#Comment_120112895

That is well thought through and makes some good points. I think it is much simpler than that - neutrality is very cheap, financially.

Wibbs · 15-01-2023 8:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120112811#Comment_120112811

I'd broadly split our neutrality into two areas, military and political. We're not politically neutral as this war demonstrates, but we can be militarily neutral. Though I would certainly massively ramp up funding for our military. Not pie in the sky woefully expensive fighter jets only any use for airshows, but anti air/tank/personnel systems and the like.

Dufflecoat Fanny · 15-01-2023 8:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120110632#Comment_120110632

0.28% amnestied talk about a forlorn hope

rogber · 15-01-2023 8:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120112859#Comment_120112859

Unfortunately realistic criticism and this thread don't go hand in hand. Basically any country not doing absolutely everything in their power to support Ukraine in every way possible is considered a Putin collaborator. At least in the eyes of a handful of posters whose own great contribution to the war effort consists in posting on boards 50 times a day....

cnocbui · 15-01-2023 9:03pm

https://twitter.com/IlvesToomas/status/1614296609298481152

Former President of Estonia says what he thinks of Swiss neutrality. I'd doff my hat to him if I wore one.

Countries should just send what they have now and worry about arguing with all the nyet wankers some other year. My bet is that Switzerland wouldn't dare to go to court and expose it's vile essence to the full glare of the world's media and opprobrium.

Gatling · 15-01-2023 9:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120112852#Comment_120112852

But did the East Germans have a military that big or was it all just Russian occupation forces , sure the stasi intelligence had a large portion of the population on their books for spies.

West Germany as I said above they had a military but the Largest military force In Germany was the US military and other Nato countries stationed there ,

At one point they had developed their own stealth fighter similar to the US F177 but with an even smaller radar cross section and yet they binned and cancelled the program,their airforce has been mainly made up of American aircraft until the tornado was developed and then the euro fighter typhoon,

They are able to produce modern firearms but even that they had a less than stellar procurement system

jmreire · 15-01-2023 9:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120112592#Comment_120112592

I understand the differences in complexity between say Transport / Trucks etc, and Military / Tanks. / Weapon systems. I was in that line of business on the civilian side so I have a fairly good idea. Even so, regardless of its complexity, it will have a maintenance schedule as per manufacturers recommendations to keep it in optimum condition. Even my wheel barrow gets it's axle greased when needed, just to keep the wheel running smoothly. And for sure when the military decide on some new equipment they want, all of these requirement's will have been factored in to the equation. The 4 x 4 5 tonners I mentioned were Mercedes Benz, and compared to the cost of a single tank, were bought for buttons, and of course easily replaceable from the production lines ( could be bought off the shelf, literally) but a multi million tank, now that's something else,,,keeping that in first class working order would ( or should ) have been on a first priority basis, even if it never fired a shot in anger. So I'm a little skeptical about major repairs needed before transfer to Ukraine. Hypothetical case,,,,Putins 3 day war had worked, and shortly after, he is on the border of East Germany...... and Scholz calls the military and tells them I want those Leopard's on the border, and I want then now!!! Only to be told, Herr Scholz, sorry to report, but ze Leopards are all in ze Workshops...maybe next month?

Sure they are carrying a certain amount of baggage from ww2, and Germanys part in it. I've worked with quite a few of them too, and some of them from a military background. But personally, the ones I worked with never gave any indication that I saw that WW2 affected their outlook on life in any way. According to them, yes, it happened, and for that and Germany's part in it, we are sorry, but that was a generation ago, something we did not have any control over.

Furze99 · 15-01-2023 9:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120112974#Comment_120112974

You over simplify perhaps. There's a difference between "not doing absolutely everything in their power to support Ukraine in every way possible" and those actively frustrating others who may wish to do more.

Ireland may not be doing everything in our power but we're not stopping or frustrating others in terms of help. That's quite a difference.

greenpilot · 15-01-2023 9:11pm

...

Dohnjoe · 15-01-2023 9:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120113042#Comment_120113042

Russia invaded Ukraine through Belarus. We don't know if they will do that again, or if Putin will convince Belarus to enter the war separately, all options are possible, which is why Ukraine has to station valuable troops and equipment there to counter a possible attack.

Say my name · 15-01-2023 9:17pm

The Irish farmers have shown a precedent here. If Irish people are not actually going out to fight the Russian scumbags and governments are being kowtowed by Putin (whatever dirt he has on politicians) then it's up to ordinary people to do the justice.

Items asked for and delivered by farmers who happen to be residing in an acquiesce high politic country to the Ukrainian military.

http://agriland.ie/farming-news/irish-farm-families-donate-jeeps-and-generators-to-ukraine/

Irish farmers can be rightly proud of this gesture. And similar can also be done by other professions in Ireland. But the farmers will own this small gesture and rightly so. It's theirs to own. This from land workers in one of the richest countries on the planet.

An aside. A man by the name of William Albrecht noted that a large majority of volunteers for the United States military in WW1 came from the mid west fertile deep soil. He put this down to the balance of minerals of the soil and how the people grew and how it formed them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Albrecht#:~:text=While%20Albrecht%20was%20a%20highly%20respected%20soil%20scientist%2C,to%20the%20plant%2C%20not%20the%20increase%20in%20pH.

His pioneering looking at soil (and people) contributed to a new soil testing system that is still being understood today.

Go farmers. Shaming the rest of us.

zv2 · 15-01-2023 9:19pm

Russians talk about the war What young Russians in Saint Petersburg think about Putin? - YouTube

Polar101 · 15-01-2023 9:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120112419#Comment_120112419

Yeah, but this Rheinmetall inventory stock is a lot older than 15 years - 88 Leopard 1's and 22 Leopard 2's (which I assume are older A4's). It's the same problem with Spanish A4's, they were mothballed and are pretty much just scrap metal at the moment.

I think the question to ask is why Germany is planning to send reserve tanks instead of something that can be operational a lot faster.

Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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