Do power cuts affect day/night meter timers?

Sysmod · 15-01-2023 10:03pm #1

We have a day/night meter with two rotating wheels. I can see the night one turns before 8am.

But how does it keep time? We had a 4 hour power cut during a storm. Why does the meter not restart 4 hours our of sync?

kirk. · 15-01-2023 10:13pm

Is there a time clock with spring reserve in the cabinet, Sangamo I think

Switches the old type meter from day to night if I'm remembering correctly

The newer units would be using battery reserve

Sysmod · 16-01-2023 11:10am

A spring reserve? How quaint -but yet how independent of power! The meter must be about 40 years old, no make that I can see, just ESB Manufactured in Ireland.

Thanks, kirk.

10-10-20 · 16-01-2023 11:12am

Newer units have a device called an RTC (real time clock) with a tiny battery and it's set at the point of manufacturing and typically remains accurate for years as long as the temperature is stable. They can be wrong - my D/N meter is 7 mins slow, but it's not enough to worry about as I just configured the car to start charging at 23:15 instead.

16-01-2023 11:14am

The old day/night clocks hadn't changed much since the dawn of electricity.

It's important to check those clocks are actually on the correct time though. They can go out of sync and you can end up with some odd billing, especially if you've storage heating.

I'm not sure if the meter readers who called were supposed to check that the time was accurate on them and report a fault if it wasn't but it's still just generally advisable to check them maybe twice a year just to make sure they're correct. They always run on GMT as far as I know without any summer time adjustment btw.

Girl Geraldine · 16-01-2023 11:19am

I'd say the smart meters have the time synced by radio time beacons.

I said this before but one of the problems with smart meters is that there will never be anyone from ESB networks checking the meters in person so any unauthorised interference with meters will be far more common now.

10-10-20 · 16-01-2023 11:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120114946#Comment_120114946

Are they not supposed to be visually checked at least once a year by a reader?

Girl Geraldine · 16-01-2023 11:40am

Are they supposed to be?

Does that actually happen in real life - does it actually progress beyond some bullet point list in a code of practice?

Calahonda52 · 16-01-2023 11:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120114946#Comment_120114946

In fact locating compliance will be much easier as they have installed a raft of smart meters on their side of the distribution network all the way down , with clever algorithms continuously aggregating the smart meters downstream of a network meter and checking against the submeters, with adjustments made for number of non smarts on that piece.

kirk. · 16-01-2023 1:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120114946#Comment_120114946

Smart meters ya but there was a digital dual tariff meter before smart meters

I was assuming they were battery backup

kirk. · 16-01-2023 2:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058279834/do-power-cuts-affect-day-night-meter-timers

Could you put up a close up picture of the meter wiring and timeclock if there is one

I can't for the life of me remember the wiring of the sangamos i think and those dual meters unless I'm misremembering the setup

16-01-2023 2:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120114946#Comment_120114946

They’ve a lot or anti tamper technology that can pick up common tricks (have seen the spec for both makes / models being installed) and there are probably area meters and so on and I bet they’ll still be read (inspected) where they think there’s an issue.

kirk. · 16-01-2023 3:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120115975#Comment_120115975

The separate nsh meter you could add a socket easily on the night rate

Think you'd be saving on the night rate without any extra charges like dual tarriff

Girl Geraldine · 16-01-2023 4:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120115975#Comment_120115975

In theory yes, but in reality will ESB networks actually follow through on it or will smart meters be just a "fire and forget" technology that allows them to do away with the hassle and wage bill of the meter readers. They will probably let them retire and not replace them.

At the end of the day, since energy suppliers are now separate from ESB networks, there is nothing really in it for ESB Networks to expend resources on stamping out meter fiddling. It will be out of the suppliers bottom line, not ESB Networks'.

kirk. · 16-01-2023 5:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120116388#Comment_120116388

That came up on another thread

Meter fiddling will obviously escalate if smart meters are not checked

kirk. · 16-01-2023 6:03pm

There's no way they'll be left unchecked . Some rental tennants will be fiddling them

Sysmod · 17-01-2023 9:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120115739#Comment_120115739

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KF_Ik_Hkf76qIn3pCgOW0CjiUhwt7L2z/view?usp=share_link

Sysmod · 17-01-2023 11:47am

Sorry, that link required access request. Here is a public link to a picture of the meter:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KF_Ik_Hkf76qIn3pCgOW0CjiUhwt7L2z/view?usp=share_link

meercat · 18-01-2023 7:09am

There should be a clock nearby

post a wider picture from further back to include the whole setup including esbn fuse

that night rate dial is reading very low (unless it has been all the way round)

kirk. · 18-01-2023 12:33pm

I think now they were using the direct switching method back in the day

Consumer wiring is the same as wiring for a separate nsh meter , 2 sets of tails

I don't recall much day/night back then mostly nsh metering

kirk. · 18-01-2023 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120123247#Comment_120123247

Ya it's gone round

Girl Geraldine · 18-01-2023 4:15pm

Are we talk the old Gold Shield style storage heating and water heating here? They were never really a success. You see a lot of defunct remnants of these systems in apartments from the 80s and 90s. Sometimes you'll see what was a gold shield cylinder or storage heater that was taken off of the goldshield system and just wired up direct, or fitted with a standard immersion when the very delicate and temperamental goldshield control system packed in.

kirk. · 18-01-2023 4:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125319#Comment_120125319

This isn't gold shield but ya that's when day/nite really kicked off with the all electric apartments

Just meant additional off peak loads and storage heating .Panel heaters , bathroom fan heater ,off peak water heating and pumped shower off the cylinder

Think it was round then the digital meter and the control pair came in , could be mistaken

Problems started with neozeds and people switching everything on together in holiday homes etc. late at night

Sysmod · 19-01-2023 9:18pm

Yes 🙂

Here's the panel. Taken at 21:15, clock pointer looks about right.

Maybe this isn't the original meter then but a day/night one that was installed when we got storage heaters. I don't see a date on those devices.

kirk. · 19-01-2023 11:27pm

Not a Sangamo but similar , would have spring reserve

Looks like the timer switches storage heating directly and an aux contact on the timer switches the meter between day and nite

I presume that's how it works on mechanical timeclocks day/nite. I wouldn't really know exactly unless you were fitting them for ESBN , you'd never really see the wiring with covers off

meercat · 20-01-2023 8:23am

This has in fact sangamo time clock workings

your timer is not correctly set

there’s an arrow time indicator (around the 9-10 o clock position on a conventional clock)

you should not be able to adjust it

it should be sealed by esbn

it looks like someone has already broken the seal on the meter and probably the clock too

this could be problematic

check that you also have a main earth link in (I can’t see it from the photo)

kirk. · 20-01-2023 8:30am

^ It looks to be there on the top right

kirk. · 20-01-2023 12:02pm

Unusual to see both seals missing

No reason that should be happening

If the timings off it's an ESBN problem , they deal with it

Girl Geraldine · 20-01-2023 5:11pm

What is the penalty for missing seals? or do they even bother enforcing it? Maybe only in extreme cases of caught-red-handed tampering?

At home, we had to have the meter replaced a few years back after it nearly went on fire. The ESB man who came out said that he noticed the seal was missing off of the meter, but there was no more about it.

kirk. · 20-01-2023 5:21pm

Dunno would they do much about seals

Tampering was easier back in the day

Add a socket off the NSH in the OP , snip the timeclock seal and change the time ,leave the seal back so cut can't be seen

Chances are it won't be noticed

Do power cuts affect day/night meter timers?

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