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Govt to do 'everything' to prevent evictions - McEntee

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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    You misunderstand your property rights. They have not been "suspended", and they have always been limited by legislation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,766 ✭✭✭mumo3


    If you allowed the local council to get first refusal on private builds hitting the market, where are the houses for people not entitled to social housing?

    But all local authorities should be looking at buying back their stock that they sold off, now I'm not a politician nor do I know anything about how the local authorities work, but putting a plan like that in place cannot be that hard, given the compulsory purchase orders already exists, can they not be tweaked to included such an order?



  • Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭SwimClub


    The idea was that it wouldn't be social housing. They are already interfering in the private rental market so why not actually do something helpful in the private rental market.

    Landlords are selling, buy off them with tenants in situe and use existing private management companies to manage the private rentals, we already have controlled rents etc. so it's very straight forward for the government.


    We will hear 'oh but the government shouldn't be getting involved in a private market' - but they are and in a much more heavy handed manner



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,987 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    There are alot of people who invested in property, not those caught up in the 2008 crash, selling. People who own several properties and when they tenancy ends they sell instead of re-renting. I can't see this helping there will be a rush to sell.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,519 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    The problem with the eviction ban is two fold.

    First it prevents temporary new supply, this had dried up anyway with the changes over notice length and all new leases were unlimited duration. As well LL with property seriously below market rates were not willing to take the capital gains hit on the sale.

    The government's refusal in the budget to give any sweetener to smaller LL with 1-2 properties is coming back to haunt them big time.

    Admittedly the accidental LL that were caught after the last recession are starting to exit wholesale as they often have little or no CGT liability. However a lot of LL with 1-2 properties that have below market rents were starting to sell up as well. Too much regulation and everything taxed to the hilt and maintenance costs gone through the roof. You have situations where the return on the houses compared to the capital value is 1-3%.

    I am not sure if the government is thinking like you posted. That takes intelligence. I do think it's a knee jerk reaction. There will be side effects. As tenant's leave properties LL's that were not thinking about selling will now seriously consider this option. More will just leave property va ant for 6-12 months or longer to see the lay of the land.

    The bigger issue is that those that have served notice will not definitely be looking to evict next March and you will have a tsunami of evictions. This could lead to calls to extend it. Then we are looking at a court case.

    If I had served eviction notice due to ecpire I would be looking at starting the legal process now so that there could be no extension of the hiatus on evictions.

    Slava Ukrainii



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    Nah step too far on my behalf like I said conspirational, but I am struggling with how an eviction ban is in the common good according to the constitution. From my read on it the common good refers to something that’s good for all society, for instance when CPOs are used to buy South Dublin City back gardens to build the Luas lines, or a CPO to build a motorway, in terms of the common good all of society can use these facilities, common meaning everyone.

    Terrible as the prospect of families being evicted is, an eviction ban isn’t necessarily in the common good, as not all of society benefits from it, in fact it’s taking from one relatively small part of part of society to give to another relatively small part of society, so I don’t see how it falls under the common good as I’d read it in the constitution, but it’s open to interpretation, government must be clenching their asses it’s not challenged.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_good



  • Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭SwimClub


    The IPOA have stated they are looking at a legal challenge.

    Regardless of whether it is successful or not they are pretty much obliged under their charter to legally challenge it.

    It is good to have a debate on this and hold government accountable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    Yeah I heard on the radio asking what the IPOA will do if they lose and then it leaves the door open to other eviction bans, my take on that is, if that happens that exodus will turn into a torrent of landlords getting out of the business and no new investors coming in.

    interesting times if the challenge is held up the ban is cancelled, if it’s thrown out you cause a mass exodus of landlords



  • Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭SwimClub


    That's a good point, because you have tenancies expiring naturally as people buy property, move in together etc. etc. and those will be sold from the market.

    But that may be irrelevant to our politicians who are acting with an election on the horizon and only care about the short term issue of landlords leaving.

    Depressing but likely true.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    Don’t think this is going to save them in an election, but if the other crowd get in, goodbye economy and everything else



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Common good does not mean "all", it is obviously to the narrow diminution of landlords and in favour of tenants.

    You used the example of roads. Roads are not to the benefit of all. Quite apart from the matter that some road projects may be a bad idea and negatively effect some communities, think of the property owner whose lands get CPO'd. He/she could throw their hands up in the air, and say "this doesn't benefit me! You're taking my land!". But CPOs are permitted as it is in the common good in that we need infrastructure even if other's rights are diminutated in the building of them.

    And you could also argue (and I would all day long) that the CPO of land is a far more severe diminution of property rights than the putitive eviction moritorium.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    The Irish Property Owners Association* would want to be still meditating on their own legal responsibilities after the Competition Authority rebuked them in 2017. When the IPOA threatened to coordinate landlords refusing to cooperate with state housing schemes like HAP and the threat to impose new makey-uppey charges on tenants after the RPZ legislation was introduced.

    They basically told them that the suggestions were cartel behaviour and that trade associations are forbidden under competition law to coordinate members business practices.

    *The IPOA could do with a rebrand. I'm a property owner and they don't speak for me. They operate in landlords and rental sector companies interests exclusively. As far as I'm aware, they weren't always called that and were more forthright that they were a landlords lobby group. Neat trick they pulled.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    Like I said my read on it, I’m not a lawyer suppose we’ll let it go to court and see what happens, but this one of those damned if you do, and damned if you don’t scenarios



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,848 ✭✭✭Sweet.Science


    Our housing Minister has told councils to buy all houses that landlords are selling

    There so many reasons why this is insane



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    If you want cheap rents in this country, rent defaulters musts be evicted to free up the properties for someone else.

    If you want cheap houses, mortgage defaulters must be evicted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭questioner22




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Because councils will outbid private buyers.

    First time buyer, oops, you can't have this. The council bought it.

    Average income buyer, oops, you can't have this. The council bought it.

    Etc. Etc. Etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,848 ✭✭✭Sweet.Science


    As stated above . And the fact there would be no landlords at all within a few years . None . Nada . Already there are hardly anyway .

    We should be introducing laws to make landlords enter the market . Not leave



  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭questioner22


    I haven't seen the story, but I'd take it to mean buying with tenants in situ.

    To me, this makes sense as otherwise you have homeless tenants.

    First-time buyers have choice of places not occupied by tenants.





  • The local authorities don’t want the bother of maintaining their properties, that’s one reason why they divested.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭questioner22


    We should be introducing laws to make landlords enter the market . Not leave

    I'd agree, but it's kind of separate to the point of councils buying properties to prevent tenants becoming homeless.

    Encouraging landlords to enter the market, it's too late. They already made policies to get them to leave.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    It's still people being outbid by the council for a house though.

    How does that work in reality? If I'm in a private rented house (i.e. a tenant in situ), and the council buy the house with me in it, can I drop my rent rate to whatever the council rate is?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Policies can be changed. It's foolish to drive small landlords out of the rental business.



  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭questioner22


    If I'm in a private rented house (i.e. a tenant in situ), and the council buy the house with me in it, can I drop my rent rate to whatever the council rate is?

    I don't see why not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭questioner22


    I agree in general, but it's complicated as well.

    Private rentals are badly regulated so that anybody can set up as a landlord.

    Based on experience, I don't agree with that. There should be some kind of vetting to operate as a landlord. Otherwise as a tenant you rely on luck as to whether they'll be a good business person, etc. Not everyone is cut out for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp



    In your scenario:

    The taxpayer is initially on the hook for inflated cost of house, because, lets be honest, the taxpayer never seems to get value for money.

    The taxpayer is on the hook on an ongoing basis because tenant is getting very cheap council rent where they may have been paying market rate before. For example (approximations here) average CC rent in Dublin is about €280pm. Average house rental in the private sector is a little over €1600. So, very little rent coming in to the council and now they have the bother of maintenance, collecting rent etc. whereas when it was in the private sector, they had no maintenance etc. and the state benefitted from the tax revenue the house generated, and in some cases that was approx. 50%. That's a big loss for the State and for what, not a single extra house generated because of it?

    And there's also the temptation for the tenant to make life very difficult for the landlord in the hope that the landlord will get fed up and sell to the council, thereby lowering the tenant's rent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Isn't that what the PRTB are supposed to do? To regulate the rental industry? Improve the vetting procedure by the PRTB rather than putting the taxpayer on the hook for a fortune.

    It's not the fault of the landlords that there's poor vetting and I think kneejerk actions won't add one single house to the supply and may actually push up the price of houses.



  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭questioner22


    In your scenario:

    The taxpayer is initially on the hook for inflated cost of house, because, lets be honest, the taxpayer never seems to get value for money.

    The taxpayer is on the hook on an ongoing basis because tenant is getting very cheap council rent where they may have been paying market rate before. For example (approximations here) average CC rent in Dublin is about €280pm. Average house rental in the private sector is a little over €1600. So, very little rent coming in to the council and now they have the bother of maintenance, collecting rent etc. whereas when it was in the private sector, they had no maintenance etc. and the state benefitted from the tax revenue the house generated, and in some cases that was approx. 50%. That's a big loss for the State and for what, not a single extra house generated because of it?

    I don't know how it works, but I'd be very surprised if anyone is paying just €280.

    Leaving that aside, the state didn't benefit that much because a huge proportion goes back into rent supplement, HAP.

    Council ownership would do away with rent supplement, and, if happened in large numbers, get rid of admin jobs that deal those payments, saving costs of paying those people.

    In other words, it would balance out.

    And there's also the temptation for the tenant to make life very difficult for the landlord in the hope that the landlord will get fed up and sell to the council, thereby lowering the tenant's rent.

    Similarly you could say that a landlord could make life 'very difficult' for a tenant if they want them to move for whatever reason.

    There are bad tenants and bad landlords. The only solution I'd see to that is better regulation. There should be regular inspections, and issues from either side should be dealt with quickly instead of the current situation of people waiting months or longer to get disputes resolved.

    ETA: Increased council ownership would reduce RTB workload as well, so that cases could be heard more quickly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    You don't seem to think too deeply on this.

    Yeah they could get rid of the people managing the rent supplements, but then they will have to hire people to manage the properties even if they subcontract the actual servicing and maintenance of the properties.

    And then you talk about regular inspections which means more inspectors.

    So where exactly are the cost savings?

    Also where does the council come up with all the loot to buy all these houses?

    BTW i think councils or more correctly national housing body should be building massive amounts of housing and not just for social welfare recipients either.

    I am not allowed discuss …



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  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭questioner22


    That's what they're supposed to do, but they're overstretched, like most services here.

    I didn't say anything was the fault of landlords (I certainly don't target all members a group because of the odd bad one).

    If anyone is at fault it's the government for mismanaging the situation as a whole.



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