Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

starkid · 17-01-2023 2:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120119902#Comment_120119902

i think its as plausible you have 25 instead of 11 in a 45 man squad. the money is all IRFU basically anyway.

but look yeah the two latter points are valid.

in interesting news articles - https://www.the42.ie/ike-anagu-ireland-ogara-5970525-Jan2023/

whatever about central deals, i don't think we can stop trying to identify IQ talent. good to see the work still being done there.

awec · 17-01-2023 3:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120119902#Comment_120119902

I don't think it's entirely superficial or just about kudos.

I think the differences are

For the player, their salary band is higher than it would be on a provincial contract.
For the club, they are billed €0 for the player at the end of the season, compared to provincial players where the club is billed a % of the contract by the IRFU. The IRFU pay a portion of all contracts I believe, with that amount varying depending on what band the player is in, e.g. development player vs regular league player etc, any salary above what the IRFU will pay comes out of the club's own earnings.

The more central deals a club has, the less of it's own earnings it has to spend on wages. This is why they are spread around a bit, if they were all concentrated in one club that would result in significant financial imbalance.

pickarooney · 17-01-2023 3:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120119538#Comment_120119538

In what area of any business does an employee renegotiate an existing, running contract, to earn less??

pickarooney · 17-01-2023 3:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120119742#Comment_120119742

It's a disgrace. Stockdale has two central contracts!

Podge_irl · 17-01-2023 3:52pm

This whole argument about them "not working" is ridiculous though. They are essentially an accounting tool (one that Leinster do seem to benefit from at the moment).

However, for all the talk of players on central contracts not be selected showing them to not work - do you really think that if central contracts didn't exist Murray wouldn't have signed onto a provincial deal as one of Munster's highest paid players anyway? The argument here is basically 2-3 year contracts are too long, but that is a risk you often have to take to secure the player. Some players choose shorter contracts to take on more risk themselves (and it doesn't always work).

Dubinusa · 17-01-2023 3:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120119615#Comment_120119615

I think that's a problem. Not discarding the lads who aren't performing. History and experience are not the end all.

Murray is predictable. Ireland were predictable at the last world cup. The squad was beaten long before we set sail. Schmidt relied on players who were out of form and were poorly coached, imo. That squad needed an infusion of different idea and play.

Farrell looks to have an adaptable type of squad. The squad is probably set and there won't be many bolters.

There's really no benifit for having experience if that experience is not a winning type of experience.

salmocab · 17-01-2023 4:09pm

I suspect some of the central contracts are used to off set costs for the province, Murray’s might very much be to not have him dropped back onto munsters books. Aki’s might be nearly as a way of paying him top money without him having to leave a poorer province for better money elsewhere.

starkid · 17-01-2023 4:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120457#Comment_120120457

but they aren't just an accounting tool. thats just one aspect. there's definite clues they pay more in some guise, and hold more prestige.

“To get a central contract, if you look at the history, you show continuity at this level to be a top class international player,” said Andy Farrell yesterday.

“That’s the remit that everyone understands and that’s what we stick to, (not) just because somebody pops up and plays four or five games that’s really good as far as international rugby is concerned. It’s about consistency at this level to prove your worth, and I suppose that’s how it always was and that’s how it will continue.”

why is Murray defacto staying a highest paid player on anybodys book. his form fell off a cliff after the Lions tour. and was waning before that.

with the latter its good to see Munster, and indeed now Connacht be ruthless. i wonder can Ireland follow suit..

aloooof · 17-01-2023 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120540#Comment_120120540

What do you expect him to say, tho? He's never going to come out and say "na, they don't really matter, it's ultimately the IRFU paying for everthing at the end of the day anyways".

Podge_irl · 17-01-2023 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120540#Comment_120120540

They may well pay more, but for the overwhelming part they are the overwhelmingly given to the players who the provinces would be paying the most for anyway.

It is not relevant how those players are playing now - it is relevant how they were playing at the time of the deal.

Look at the provinces experience of hiring NIQs. There are an absolute stack of players who came over here to steal a living because they didn't perform to the level expected of them. There is no reason to think you wouldn't be in basically the exact same situation.

Former Former Former · 17-01-2023 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120540#Comment_120120540

i wonder can Ireland follow suit..

No offence but you're big on telling us how sh1t Ireland are, but not so much on telling us what we should actually do differently.

In Andy Farrell's first game as coach, he benched the centrally-contracted POM and gave 21 year old Caelan Doris his first cap. He's spent the subsequent three years not giving a shyte what contract people are on. Earls hasn't been a regular starter for two years. Murray hasn't been a regular starter for two years. Stockdale has been completely cut adrift, central deal or not.

The coach is doing exactly what you want him to do.

So what, and be specific here, do you want him to do differently?

17-01-2023 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120478#Comment_120120478

Yeah, I'm not saying he's an elite scrum half any more. I'm asking, who would your three scrum halves be in a RWC squad? I still think I'd have him as the third option there.

If you're filling out a squad, for the last few places, and you've a choice between very experienced guys who've been there and done it before, or guys who never have, I'd back the more experienced guy in those situations. The odds of them being a positive contributor to the squad (including on the training field, in the meeting rooms etc) is just much higher in my view. The example I used was if it's a choice between Murray and Caolin Blade or Luke McGrath, I think Murray would still add more than either of those.

AbusesToilets · 17-01-2023 5:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120119902#Comment_120119902

A transition to a system where they are awarded on a per year basis to the players selected for the national squad would serve better. Rewards form, and forward looking, versus rewarding past performance. It would also synergise with the policy of only selecting players playing for the provinces. Stay in Ireland to play for Ireland, make more money.

17-01-2023 5:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120793#Comment_120120793

Yeah, but it would either heighten the risk of losing your best players (having them secured consistently for shorter periods) or would drive up the cost consistently, because you'd always be contracting with players at the point where their value is highest.

AbusesToilets · 17-01-2023 5:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120842#Comment_120120842

True, but if that's the market then the players deserve to be paid their worth. Perhaps an increase across the board for provincial contracts could ameliorate that issue

aloooof · 17-01-2023 5:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120887#Comment_120120887

Players deserve to be paid their worth at the time they signed their contract.

You could equally argue the IRFU are entitled to pay the player what they agreed for the duration of the contract, even if the player significantly improves during the contract. It works both ways. Indeed, it's supposed to work both ways. It protects both parties.

Besides, a huge issue with a single-year model is that players themselves may want the security of a longer contract.

And finally, post-Covid, I can't imagine the IRFU are in a position to increase provincial contracts across the board.

17-01-2023 5:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120887#Comment_120120887

There is risk both ways when a player signs a contract - regardless of where the player is from, the player may either outperform or underperform the contract.

For the IRFU, or anyone in sports administration, the objective is actually that you end up with players who are outperforming their contracts surely?

This notion of constantly rewarding players who have a good run of form just leads to severe wage inflation in the space, and is probably the type of thing that will lead to more player disharmony and potential for dressing room disruption.

Face facts - the IRFU have largely gotten this right. This is evidenced by the fact that very very rarely have we lost our best players out of the system, despite the fact that they can typically earn more in the short term overseas.

aloooof · 17-01-2023 5:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120940#Comment_120120940

This notion of constantly rewarding players who have a good run of form just leads to severe wage inflation in the space

For a single-year model to work with the IRFU still able to balance the books, the flip side of this is that, if a senior player has a poor season, you'd have to drop his wages.

It could absolutely lead to disharmony. That, combined with the lack of security on rolling 1 year deals, I think you'd end up seeing more players leave tbh.

sprucemoose · 17-01-2023 5:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120970#Comment_120120970

.....a la scotlands newest 10 Ben Healy.....

AbusesToilets · 17-01-2023 6:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120120940#Comment_120120940

Would a bonus earned lead to wage inflation? I don't buy that players would look to leave if you changed the system. The desire to play for Ireland is far more impactful in keeping players. Most of the internationals could probably secure a higher wage overseas. Money by itself isn't keeping them here.

aloooof · 17-01-2023 6:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120121037#Comment_120121037

I don't buy that players would look to leave if you changed the system.

Do you not think players want the security of 2-3 year contracts?

17-01-2023 6:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120121037#Comment_120121037

But it would just lead to a scenario where the IRFU are effectively needlessly spending more money?

I do think it will lead to disruption, which in turn will lead to more players leaving. How the "bonus" you're describing is awarded will be subjective, and is very likely to descend into perceived provincial bias or favouritism.

You're literally talking about a scenario which would lead to more of a monetisation culture in terms of how we tell players they're valued, and the natural extension of that is that players will consistently re-evaluate their own situation far more frequently too.

So, for example, in 2022, you've a guy like Gavin Coombes, who is invaluable to Munster, but hasn't historically been in Andy Farrell's plans, possibly getting a smaller bonus or no bonus in your scenario, while Leinster's third choice 8 Max Deegan would get more of a bonus. You think that's not going to lead to significant disruption?

I have a good friend who is a rugby agent, and he would absolutely love the scenario you're describing here, because those are the guys who would really do a lot better in this scenario. I can't see how it would be a good outcome for Irish rugby.

AbusesToilets · 17-01-2023 7:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120121134#Comment_120121134

The bonus would be an addition to their actual contract, not a situation of 1 yr contracts. If a player was getting selected and earning the bonus, then they'd be in their rights to negotiate a more valuable contact. Just as they are currently. I fully support players getting paid their worth.

If a guy isn't making the international squads, that's on them to sort out. I don't see why that would be any more disruptive than the present situation. Again, to clarify, I'm talking about the central contracts being gotten rid of in favor of an annual bonus awarded to players for getting selected to international squads, on top of their provincial contracts.

ulsteru20s · 17-01-2023 7:44pm

Players would absolutely leave if we went to one year contracts. Unless those one year contracts are mammoth.

Especially immediately after world cups.

The whole bonus thing for playing for ireland is already a thing. Its called match fees.

aloooof · 17-01-2023 7:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120121381#Comment_120121381

That happens already tho; players get match fees.

Edit: what ulsteru20s said.

ersatz · 17-01-2023 8:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120121490#Comment_120121490

I read the idea as a bonus for making the Ireland squad, in other words players who get into the squad but don't get into the 23. It's an interesting idea and I wonder if it would make any difference to retention and quality. Ultimately for our best players the promise of playing International rugby is the big reason to stay in the country, assuming they could earn more abroad. Guys who make squads but only occasionally get selected might see a benefit in financial terms to being otherwise peripheral.

17-01-2023 8:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120121381#Comment_120121381

Okay, but why?

You’re just proposing we pay the players more money potentially than we currently do for no reason. We don’t have an issue with player retention.

If the IRFU had those surplus funds (and I don’t think they do) a better use would be investing in underage rugby etc rather than just additional bonuses to international players.

plus, the guys who are playing international rugby aren’t the guys who are thinking of leaving anyway.

aloooof · 17-01-2023 8:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120121605#Comment_120121605

Ok, so following this idea through (which is essentially giving wider squad players more money) where does that money come from?

ersatz · 17-01-2023 9:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120121697#Comment_120121697

The context is whether central contracts make sense as the best way of redistributing central funds to pay players in the provinces. What are the alternatives to centrally contracting players? We aren't talking about additional funds here, we are taking about how the IRFU might redesign the distribution of funds to support player wages while incentivizing players. Bonuses for wider squads might make sense.

ersatz · 17-01-2023 9:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120121633#Comment_120121633

Why pay match bonuses to players who aren't intending to leave anyway, and when they are already likely to be the higher payed players? Surely those bonuses would be better spent on development, right?

As above, how can the IRFU get the most from those payments they do make to players?

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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