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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,524 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    To be fairs, That graphic does hide the reality that great swathes of the landmass are inhospitable, or close to without even more intense reclamation than what already happens. While some of those urban areas like Las Vegas are barely staying ahead of nature and encroaching desertification threatened by Lake Mead drying up. That whole empty section in the West being, what, deserts and mountains?

    Post edited by pixelburp on


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,218 ✭✭✭yagan


    The problem seems to be more demographic than spatial. The EU is a necessary consolidation of pooled resources just to maintain the current lifestyle. Even famously insular Japan opened up to emigration in recent years to meet basic labour shortfalls.

    The UK opted out of this pooled effort and now find themselves more reliant on unverifiable immigrants.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,760 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Sure. The East coast has most of the population centres for historical and geographical reasons. Europeans obviously have a much easier time getting to Massachusetts than Montana. California and Texas benefitted from huge boons in natural resources which fed their economic explosions. A lot of the place is uninhabitable but there's still room. For reference, here's France:

    The UK:

    God, I love maps.

    I've no idea where this ties into Brexit. Was it something to do with the "full up" stuff pushed by red tops?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,706 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Perhaps there is a correlation between population density and voting for Brexit?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,760 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    There is. The cities, by and large, voted to remain. The countryside and smaller towns voted for Brexit.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,067 ✭✭✭joeguevara




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,698 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    Interesting article about the negotiations from a new book that one of the EU negotiators during the Brexit discussions wrote. It is very interesting that Johnson agreed to customs checks between NI and the UK but then 3 weeks later openly lied about it. But then we know Johnson will lie for his own good,


    'Boris Johnson agreed in the final hours of the Northern Ireland Protocol negotiations that there would be customs declarations on goods exiting Northern Ireland to Britain, despite the fact that just three weeks later he told businesses in the North there would be "no forms, no checks, no barriers of any kind…," according to a detailed new account of the protocol negotiations.

    The former British prime minister also told Taoiseach Leo Varadkar in the days leading up to the deal in October 2019 that the protocol would not just maintain the all-Ireland economy but "deepen" it.

    Mr Johnson also explicitly accepted a role for the European Court of Justice in the surveillance and enforcement of EU single market rules for goods in Northern Ireland once the protocol took effect.

    The revelations are contained in a new book by a senior EU official present throughout the five years of negotiations between the EU and UK, as Britain formally left the European Union and forged a new relationship.'


    I don't know if it reveals anything we did not suspect, but the two faced approach of the UK is quite striking. They would be looking for solutions and agreeing that unicorns were not going to be caught, but in the press and parliament would be trying to portray a totally different situation and where they stood. But we know Brexit was not going to work the way it was sold.


    Another tidbit at the bottom though,


    'Mr De Rynck concludes: "Anyone speculating that the threat of no deal by the UK would panic the EU into throwing Ireland under the bus or change its position misread the EU. Yet Downing Street sources kept feeding reporters with that line."'


    So we know where that position came from. It was Downing Street telling reporters what the EU would do and they ran with it. This has spread to, well we know where don't we.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,077 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    We knew all this already about Johnson. Johnson was all about his "oven ready deal" and the NIP until he needed an "enemy" for his idiotic base to get angry about and then his own deal was thrown under the big red bus of lies.

    The Irish bit is interesting and confirms my suspicion that the likes of Kermit were just using copy and paste Tory lines.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,706 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Who is this Kermit you speak of?



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,384 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    Remember that big red bus with the £350,000,000 on the side of it?

    Once it became surplus to requirements over there Kermit was determined to find a use for it over here.

    Sadly that never happened and the bus was last seen broke down en route to the ferry.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,760 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I wonder if the Telegraph is ok.

    I've seen a few of these and I don't know if it's pandering to affluent, older Brexity types or if it's just a bit deranged in Telegraph tower.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,503 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Not saying that the Tories haven't made a balls of everything they have touched , but suggesting that Brexit could have been successful if handled differently is disingenuous in the extreme.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,760 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Sadly, that's the bad faith tactic of choice for anyone pushing a nonsense ideology that benefits only a tiny portion of the elite. Brexit will never fail because it was never done, same defence one could make for Stalinism. The one thing we might actually get out of this is a lasting impression for most Britons that the Tory party is essentially their enemy.

    I hate just dumping the pic there but I couldn't find any others. Googling "Telegraph", "Brexit" and "Contradictions" turns up many, many results.

    This is from this week:

    Managed to find another:


    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,524 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    It is, however, how a lot of its readership thinks: if you scan the Comments sections in these articles that's precisely the logic that's now dominating those clinging to the Myth of Brexit. That it's not that the leaving itself was the problem - it was clearly a Great Idea the Tories were too incompetent to make work.

    So the right conclusion, that the Tories are a bunch of useless idiots, just 100% the wrong reasoning that led to that conclusion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,657 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Barnier is on the record as saying that Johnson and Frost knew exactly what they were signing up to. There was no confusion whatsoever, they understood perfectly what they were signing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭timetogo1


    It's a useful argument for the brexiters. "Brexit would have worked but it's all the remainers fault that it didn't".

    It fits into the narrative that it's always "somebody elses fault". That way you don't have to take ownership and fix the problem :)



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,760 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    That only works for the Brexit faithful. There are fewer and fewer of them by the day.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭timetogo1




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,760 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    A government that looks less and less like something you'd expect in a democracy. They're getting evicted soon and they know it.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,243 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Yet Labour are going to do Brexit right, which is not good for the UK either.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,085 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    They are, until they aren't.

    Its in Starmer's interests to let a series of events occur which demonstrate the folly of Brexit, blame the Tories, then reverse policy, once the opinion polls are set against Brexit in its entirety.

    One such event occurred today, the BritishVolt company collapsed. A maker of EV capacitors, it was supposed to have attracted £2 Billion in investment and created 3,000 jobs. As it was, the investment never materialised and the Government were tapped for a 100 million bailout, which they didn't get. The 300 jobs that had so far been stood up, are gone.

    And now, due to product content regs post Brexit, cars made within Britain will have to rely on British batteries being available to be built (combustion engines are basically dead already) and if they can't get them, it jeopardises whats left of car building as a whole.

    But of course, a British battery operation isn't viable, because they can't export economically to the car builders in the EU, which it in turn needs to expand and be viable!!

    The Brexit paradox, if you will. A slow unstoppable descent through the seventh circle of shite.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    This is what I was afraid of. Investment in a futuristic, 21st century British economy racing ahead of the EU. Not an economy that relies on selling pounds of butter to the near neighbours like we do and think we are great for it.


    London sailed past European rivals to retain its crown as the top destination for tech investment last year as nearly $20bn was pumped into the capital’s start-ups,

    https://www.cityam.com/london-beats-paris-and-berlin-to-retain-european-tech-investment-crown/



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,760 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I don't know what you're on about with regards to butter. Ireland has a highly developed economy based on agrifood, manufacturing, life sciences and financial services.

    As for the £20 billion, I doubt most of these firms will still exist in 12 months.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,826 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The last multi billion UK startup we were told was going to make use of the fictional Brexit Benefits and rule the world was Britishvolt.

    Who have gone bust.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,524 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    This came up in the white heat of Brexit and the same applies now as it does then: startups are not a steady or sensible foundation for any economy and notorious for failing. In fact depending on who you ask that's the entire point.

    The $20 billion looks impressive but the IT tech bubble is in the "bust" phase of its constant boom and bust cycle; Microsoft only yesterday announcing 10k job losses worldwide, joining a plethora of other Big Tech firms. Startups are not immune to that.

    The butter comment is just plain weird, and a deeply reductive, myopic perspective on Ireland's successful agrifood sector. Show me a global economy whose success was built on startups and I'll take your point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,077 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Ah nice we haven't had a good pretend fear of the benefits of Brexit from the Irexit crowd in a while.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,874 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Don't those figures just extend the issues Britain has been having for decades but continually get glossed over? Much of that Venture Capital money is just being moved around on spreadsheets for dubious benefit, there is often very little productive gain from it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,893 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    The butter comment is just plain weird, and a deeply reductive, myopic perspective on Ireland's successful agrifood sector.

    Last time I was in France, I visited a vineyard in the Cognac area. On the tour of the cellars, our guide complained that Cognac exports earn France more than Airbus, but you never see a French government minister on the television praising them. Could say something similar about our butter industry?

    I wouldn't rate our plastic cheese sector though, regardless how much Dubliner cheese is produced in Mitchelstown!



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,524 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Exactly. VC is just a slush fund for money to move around; that beyond a few tertiary benefits like a dozen pay-cheques here and there, there's less benefits to the functional economy than - say - a robust and competitive set of larger, more quantifiable industries.

    Britain's not going to succeed 'cos VC money's funding the next Juicero.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,427 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    I think 'London still number one' is erroneous logic anyway, regardless of whether its volume of shares, capital, investment, trade, commodities etc that are being referenced.

    Such articles are usually followed by a comparison with Paris, Frankfurt, Antwerp, Rotterdam, etc and London leading is indicated as some sort of proof that the UK is beating the EU.

    This seems illogical though as whilst the UK is happy to funnel literally everything through London, the EU operates in a much more decentralised manner - and even within EU countries there is still more decentralisation such that one city isn't all powerful. In such circumstances it would be pretty noteworthy if London wasn't top of everything.



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