Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Dubinusa · 18-01-2023 3:50pm

The threat of a run or line break is a key facet. Sexton still has that in his arsenal.

aloooof · 18-01-2023 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124662#Comment_120124662

I can't think of one in recent times where Munster have looked particularly fluid with Crowley at 10. Can you give me an example?

There's an obvious sample size issue here in that he's only started 2 games from 10 this season. (In the same way there's a very limited amount we can read into Ross Byrne's 2 starts for Ireland).

But I think the recent Ulster game he played well in. He had 1 or 2 wayward kicks from hand (tho Patterson's were a bigger issue) but overall, I think he played well. Using the Ulster site Buer pointed to, he's down for 5 defenders beaten. (Which is illustrative of exactly the point I'm making).

It's also focusing on just one part (albeit an important one) of 10 play. Byrne is definitely a better kicker (from hand and the tee) and defender from 10 than Crowley right now too.

I'm not sure it's as clear-cut that RB is a better defender tho. Don't get me wrong, RB is quality (I've previously said I think he's the best defensive 10 we have after Johnny) but Crowley has really stepped up in this regard over the last 6 months. He's easily Munster's most abrasive 10. He was responsible for 2 choke tackles against Northampton last weekend, for example.

sydthebeat · 18-01-2023 4:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124937#Comment_120124937

The ability of a 10 to stand flat is directly related to the speed of ruck, go forward of tight carriers, and general pack dominance. Byrne had to stand deep in his 2 irish starts due to our pack getting beaten and out ruck speed being slow.

if you watch the highlights of ross byrnes home leinster debut, against Northampton in the aviva in December 2016, youll see a player not at all afraid to play flat, as the pack gave him an armchair ride that day.

Former Former Former · 18-01-2023 4:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125038#Comment_120125038

Using the Ulster site Buer pointed to, he's down for 5 defenders beaten. (Which is illustrative of exactly the point I'm making).

Did he beat four of those five in that one break though?

But you're right, sample size is where it all falls apart. I think we know where we stand with RB, for better or worse. We need to see more of Crowley at 10 because trying to gauge an OH on his performances at 12 or 15 is very misleading.

Assuming Sexton is fit, I really hope we release Crowley back to Munster for the 3 or 4 games during the 6N.

aloooof · 18-01-2023 4:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125065#Comment_120125065

Agreed; the 4 games in and around the 6 Nations (Benetton, Ospreys, Scarlets and Glasgow) are exactly the type of games I'd like to see Crowley starting and doing well in from 10.

And with Ben Healy confirmed leaving, you'd imagine they'll be more inclined to try get the gametime into Crowley than picking Ben.

18-01-2023 4:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125038#Comment_120125038

Yeah, I think Crowley is a good tackler unquestionably, and he's very aggressive, but Ross Byrne has a long proven track record of being a very good defensive 10. The transition for Leinster from Sexton to Byrne is seamless, and I can't think of any examples off hand of him being shown in defence (including even the rare days when he played at 12 and 13).

Also calling Crowley "easily Munster's most abrasive 10" is meaningless, when the other two guys are notoriously not abrasive 🙂. He is a very aggressive and game tackler though.

For that Ulster game, I really don't think he had a good game as a 10 in that game. He moved to 12 after 53 mins when Munster were losing 9-5. The bulk of those defenders beaten were on that infamous break that set up the late Healy try, but came when he had moved position.

Munster definitively did not look fluid in attack for large chunks of that game when Crowley was at 10.

I hear what you're saying on the sample size piece, but I still think it's a fair comment to say Crowley has played his best rugby this season in positions other than out half. I can't think of a Munster game this season where Munster as a team attacked well and put a lot of tries on the board while Crowley was at 10.

gameoverdude · 18-01-2023 6:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124922#Comment_120124922

Hard to count that many.

gameoverdude · 18-01-2023 6:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124989#Comment_120124989

It's the wrap arounds, false runners and set plays that negates the need.

Byrne is a master at switching directions with a cross field kick when it's on.

Give me a proper 10 with 10 intelligence any time as opposed to flashy. Not looking at Russell at all.

ulsteru20s · 18-01-2023 7:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125119#Comment_120125119

It’s basically all about potential and flashes. How late he passes, how he instinctively waits to make guys commit, his demeanor.

I don’t think anyone would argue he’s a better 10 than ross byrne right now, but he has a higher ceiling. Basically, I’d pick him for the same reason they pick mccarthy.

stephen_n · 18-01-2023 7:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120124473#Comment_120124473

It's axiomatic; if the 10 doesn't possess a running threat, the defence can be far more comfortable pushing off him. (Which is pretty much exactly what we saw in RB's 2 international starts

This is true and I broadly agree that Byrnes lack of athleticism affects him more at international level. However Byrne’s two starts were in a massively different system that relied far more heavily on the 10.

I have my doubts about RB at test level but do feel he has done enough to earn another shot.

aloooof · 18-01-2023 7:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125737#Comment_120125737

I'd agree with that; it's worth pointing out that one of his starts was actually under Farrell, albeit it was in the November of Farrell's first year and thing hadn't started to click in attack yet. But ya, that's pretty much exactly what I meant by the following:

and our attack has improved a lot since then, so if he is called in, I'd expect him to be a lot better than his previous showings demonstrated.

I think there's no doubt he deserves to be ahead of guys he was previously behind in the shape of Burns, Carty, Harry Byrne anyways. (It's notable tho that Farrell selected all those guys ahead of him at one point or another; all players with a better running threat, imo).

gameoverdude · 18-01-2023 7:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125824#Comment_120125824

Can't see any of those three guys ahead. Hb maybe in the future. Seen nothing yet though. Carty not a chance.

But I know nothing really.

aloooof · 18-01-2023 7:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125846#Comment_120125846

Ya, I don't see them being ahead of him now. But they've all been ahead of him in the past.

I think it gives some indication of the type of 10 Farrell is looking for.

gameoverdude · 18-01-2023 8:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125917#Comment_120125917

Very true. I think Carbery is behind I all honesty. Again, I know nothing!

Former Former Former · 18-01-2023 9:06pm

Gerry Thornley saying RB will be called up as well as Crowley.

stephen_n · 18-01-2023 9:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120125824#Comment_120125824

I think a three legged donkey would have a better running threat than Ross to be honest. Which is a pity as otherwise he would be the only 10 in the country remotely close to Sextons standard.

Dubinusa · 18-01-2023 9:49pm

Harry isn't near the team. His goal should be to get minutes and game time under his belt. I've no idea if he's going to be a good out half. I'd say Crowley at least has shown some good physical traits.

Carty is nowhere near the level. Burns is under rated. He's a running threat but, his kicking isn't great. RB probably does deserve an opportunity. I don't think he's at the level either. But he'd be grand off the bench.

sprucemoose · 18-01-2023 10:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126307#Comment_120126307

probably true either way for now

bit harsh though

gameoverdude · 18-01-2023 10:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126307#Comment_120126307

Plus a better tackling treat than any of the ohs.

stephen_n · 18-01-2023 11:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126811#Comment_120126811

Yes, definitely no better 10 defensively apart from Sexton. Crowley might get there, he certainly isn’t afraid to put his body on the line.

gameoverdude · 18-01-2023 11:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126969#Comment_120126969

Needs development still, but cracking player. High hopes.

stephen_n · 18-01-2023 11:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120126987#Comment_120126987

I have for a longtime had high hopes for him. I think he will be Sextons long term successor.

Though I think if it was a choice between Crowley and RB to start a RWC quarter final later this year. I’d go with RB without hesitation.

aloooof · 18-01-2023 11:13pm

Not to open another can of worms but... what do people think constitutes a successful 6 Nations this year?

gameoverdude · 18-01-2023 11:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127014#Comment_120127014

Is he a 12 though? I dunno.

phog · 18-01-2023 11:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127027#Comment_120127027

Wales & England scrambling to get a team together under new coaches, France in the Aviva.

I'm looking at a Grand Slam but anything lower than 2nd place would be a disappointment for me

molloyjh · 18-01-2023 11:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127027#Comment_120127027

We really need to win it. It would push us a step further away from 2019 for starters. But we’ve also won nothing under Farrell yet despite the really positive 18 months or so. We need to win something ahead of the RWC to show we can do it.

I’d be okay with a 2nd placed finish in certain circumstances. Like if France beat us at home in a belter of a game then grand. But it would still be a disappointment. We’re good enough to win it and we have the perfect opportunity in front of us now.

18-01-2023 11:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127027#Comment_120127027

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120127084#Comment_120127084

I think it's hard to answer this question. Ireland in 2013 were scrambling to get a team together under a new coach and we probably should have beaten the All Blacks.

There are now serious wild cards in this tournament and it makes it potentially one of the most fascinating six nations in years.

In order of who were playing:

Wales. Wild Card. Terrible Autumn and it's the last series of tests before the World Cup. Gatland is going to have those lads wound up something absolutely awful. I don't think they're a great team, I think they're beatable, but I think they will come at us hard in that first game. If we're composed and play to our system I expect a win, but they are going to really look to stifle us and it would mean EVERYTHING to Wales to beat Ireland, as World number 1 team in the six nations opener.

France. Reigning champions, savage squad with not many injuries. We have them at home, some of their key guys haven't been in amazing form but they'll have warmed up well with a dominant win against Italy and have their talés up coming to the Aviva. I wouldn't be calling this game to be honest, by rights they really should be World no.1 as far as I'm concerned.

Italy. Win.

Scotland. I thought Scotland looked good in the Autumn and I expect them to have a decent six nations. I think we'll have enough to turn them over but Glasgow and Edinburgh have been pretty solid this season and I think it could be a close enough fixture.

England. Wild Card. Will really depend on the type of tournament they and we have had at that point as do all games after round 2. Hard to know what moral in the camp is like, seems some players wanted Eddie gone, some bitterly disappointed about it so whether Borthwick can come in and settle things and get them going is as big a variable as anything else.

I don't think it's clear cut to be honest. I think we're a good team that know how to win but it's never straight forward. I think given the fixtures that a Championship win would be a success. Grand slam would leave us looking really good going into the RWC.

ersatz · 18-01-2023 11:44pm

Every game bar Italy is a banana skin this year. As Venjur says, Wales will have a lot to prove and England under Borthwick will be playing for their lives. That said, Ireland are in mighty form and a good start against Wales should set us up. France is tall order alright but if we are serious about winning the world cup then we absolutely have to beat them at home this year. Losing that game would be a disappointing 6N for me.

phog · 19-01-2023 12:28am

Obviously every game is a banana skin and as happened to Munster last weekend a red card could impact a game plan or allow a team win that we wouldn't expect to beat us.

But a few weeks out from the 6Ns there's no team I'd be overly concerned about bar France and we play them at home so advantage Ireland.

If we want to have any hopes of progressing in the World Cup then we have to be going into the 6Ns as real contenders to win it and carry the favorites tag when playing England, Wales, Scotland & Italy.

Dubinusa · 19-01-2023 2:28am

As long as we don't **** our jocks like we did in the opener in 2019. If we beat Wales, and get a w v France, I think we will win the grand slam.

If we lose to Wales, I can't see a good tourney for us. Gatland will have his team eating nails and farting volcanic lava for the 1st match. We weren't very good this autumn.. so, I reckon 4 wins would be good.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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