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You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the right.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,287 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Because it's not achievable, on account of being an unrealistic utopia.

    Hence, further in the post I say..."As I've said, I'd argue that Communism is impossible to achieve, because there's too much standing in the way of it from a practical nature. And certainly it's impossible when applied to vast nations such as Russia. On an extremely small scale, it might be a possibility. But not when it comes to large land masses."

    No, that is socialism. Communism is what follows after the above was implemented, and the only way that can be implemented is by force, no one will be willingly give up their wealth (even when wealth means 2 cows and an acre of land).

    No. And as I've also said..."Communism is the elimination of all private ownership, elimination of class and money and political power derived from the people."

    "Socialism", according to Marx, is the journey that's taken to that endgame achievement.

    Both socialism and communism can only "work" as autocratic totalitarian and violent regimes.

    Untrue. Socialism has been working in numerous European countries, including Ireland and Britain. A national health service is a socialist ideal.

    Communism, on the other hand, has never been achieved in any country, so we have no real idea how that looks.

    Radical left just like radical right is inherently totalitarian. We can talk theory here but actual history teach us that both radical left and radical right regimes were always violent and totalitarian, with no exception.

    The only thing "actual history" shows us is that any system is easily used by nefarious actors to achieve their aims.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Cordell


    There is a big difference between socialism and social-democracy. What we have here in Ireland and in the rest of the Europe are various levels of social-democracy, not socialism. And while socialism have some good ideas like the one you mention and also things like free education, the system as a whole cannot resist without an autocratic totalitarian regime.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,632 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    The right argues against Trans rights on the basis that it facilities grooming of children with respect to them reading to kids , it's been done extensively on this thread.

    This individual above isn't exactly some randomer. He was interviewed on a HBO documentary within which he simultaneously accused Democrats of being pedophiles and it was revealed as to his own conviction history.

    The topic of right wing QAnon conspiracies suggesting Democratic pedophile rings is relevant to this thread discussion, the rank hypocrisy makes it particularly relevant to the thread title.

    What point were you trying to make?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,287 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    A lot of Social Democracy is still based on socialist ideals. There's no getting away from that.

    And there is nothing about socialism or socialist ideals that make it irresistible to autocratic totalitarians, for they would use any system that would garner support from the wider public and certainly socialist thinking and ideals held more for the general population than the systems that preceded them. Whish is why they took hold so firmly throughout Europe during the industrial revolution and in the early part of the 20th Century.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,424 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    You don't see any issue with a story like this being scarcely mentioned on BBC or Sky News either no?

    Its' all over the internet, I don't watch rolling news 24/7 so I don't know if it's been reported on TV or not.

    This report on Sky News web says the story was initially reported on...wait for it...The Sun on Sunday.

    And anyway it was you who made the point that Zahawi was the one who crashed the economy and is the one who isn't paying his taxes, to show some kind of right wing evil, which is false, so it's not just a simple case of you misidentifying someone rather the point you made was false.

    As for Zahawi if he's been found to have done wrong, I've no idea, I'm sure Sunak will reprimand him, as he did last week with this Tory MP. https://news.sky.com/story/mp-andrew-bridgen-has-tory-whip-removed-after-remarks-on-covid-vaccines-and-holocaust-12784275



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,424 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    The right argues against Trans rights on the basis that it facilities grooming of children with respect to them reading to kids , it's been done extensively on this thread.

    The trans rights wars are largely being argued between centrists but of course the religious and alt Right are chipping in.

    I have no sympathy for the groomer accusation for the following reasons;

    Progressive left ideologues were the one's who started being utterly vicious with their TERF'S acronym and dismissing anyone with a rational argument as being transphobic, homophobic, racist etc.

    Progressive left ideologues have been increasing targeting children to further their cause.

    For Example

    Maggie Chapman is a Green MSP. She is not transgender but what she is is a lefty loon. Basically nobody agrees with her bullshit, and she is using gender identity as a pawn in her wider politician games. She is not qualified to be taken seriously. If she is being accused of being a groomer she deserves it. The term groomer doesn't necessarily mean sexual groomer, like for example terrorists groom people as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,065 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Indeed. You have no problem being abused and bullshit claims about them. Says a lot.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    The irony is that the "Progressive" Left are using the same type of rhetoric the Neocons and George W. Bush used during his 8 years as President.

    "You are either with us, or against us."



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Cordell


    And there is nothing about socialism or socialist ideals that make it irresistible to autocratic totalitarians

    And still, every single time socialism started and ended up under autocratic totalitarians.

    Socialist ideas can and do work in free democratic societies, but not the full blown socialism, because it's not compatible with freedom and democracy. I should know, I grew up in one, where even having this conversation would have been trouble for both of us.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23 fattaximan


    Yes , like beaner showing up in Spain , your purpose of visit Mr Behan , I'm here for Francos funeral, he's not dead yet , I'll wait ! Too bad he only got a poxy strip of social houses on Jones Rd named after him !



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy



    A culture of hatred and violence against Jews in the National Union of Students.


    The last national Union of Students presidents, Labour activist Shaima Dallali had to resign over Anti Semitism, the previous one Larissa Kennedy had her own anti Semitic outbursts.


    Too many on the Left today see "the Jew" as capitalism in an ethnic form and the struggle against one as part of the struggle against the other.


    This is not a small problem, it is at the core of their political beliefs.


    I don't see it as the driver in Ireland for activists that it is in Europe, Britain or America. That will change though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,632 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    So socialism and communism are one and the same thing?

    Not true by even the loosest definitions.

    Is worth pointing out, no one is advocating for communism on this thread.

    The examples of every day concerns relevant to this discussion for people in the discussion are outcomes of right wing strategies, philosophies individuals and parties that are not necessarily of the 'far right' category so trying to counter the issues of today by talking about lett wing extremes isn't relevant is it.

    Elements of the far right exist, as fo the far left but the former is much more relevant to this discussion than the latter. And what exists between the far right and the centre is where the real problem lies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,632 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Loss of one of the most decent politicians from the political sphere announced today with Jacinda Ardern announcing she is stepping down.

    Such a change from so many characters we see most of the time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Cordell


    So socialism and communism are one and the same thing?

    No, of course not, to put it shortly socialisms is the enforced road to communisms. In socialism people who don't want it are coerced, in communism they are either happy or gone. Or so the story goes...

    Is worth pointing out, no one is advocating for communism on this thread.

    The discussion is about the wing which is more dangerous, there was an argument that socialisms is not inherently dangerous and my argument was that it actually is just as dangerous as fascism and nazism. And that's not just my opinion, it's the historical truth. Far left and far right are equally dangerous, or if we compare body count alone, far left is far more dangerous.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,632 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    The extremes aren't solely the problem though really. That's kinda the point.

    The issues I listed in the OP, or throughout the discussion since (Brexit, science denial with respect to Covid in particular, election undermining, access to Healthcare, making it more difficult to protest, climate damage, access to housing, wealth disparity, war in Ukraine etc etc). These are all things that negatively impact the societies in which most of us live to lesser or greater degrees are all positions that have been initiated, or exacerbated by right wing philosophies and advocates.

    But not necessarily 'far' right wing, even though there's often an overlap. If we were just talking about the extremes, we'd be talking about isolated groups or individuals pushing narratives on websites or podcasts or supporting media etc, not actual government policy as has too often been the case recently.

    This isn't a conversation about extremes, no matter how much people wish to make it so in order to be able to point the finger at the left, (which even when they do on here they have to go to history or misrepresent the leaders of Russia and North Korea as being left wing ideologies which they clearly aren't).

    I've never said the left is perfect, or without issue, but the issues our societies are experiencing today are outcomes of strategies that have nothing to do with Left wing ideals.

    And why the thread title was and is relevant (as evidenced by US right wing freaking out over M&M's and UK right wing freaking out over Harry's book), is that too many in society are turning their focus in the wrong direction when getting outraged and calling for change.

    Also, Socialism isn't a road to communism, if it was, countries that have long had good socialist programs would at this pointing be moving in that detection, yet that clearly hasn't been happening.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Cordell


    but the issues our societies are experiencing today are outcomes of strategies that have nothing to do with Left wing ideals

    Nor do they have anything to do with right wing ideals.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,632 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Tell me so how come all the architects or proponents of the acts that led to, or continue to lead to these ills are demonstrably right wing in ideology?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Cordell


    The lot of them are weak populist grifters, not right nor left wing politicians. There is nothing right wing in Brexit or science denial, if anything right wing will favor cheap imported labour and free access to a wide market, from this point if view the protectionist aspect of Brexit is left wing.

    And about wealth disparity, or even more important, cost of living, these are left wing policies consequences: energy prices could be halved if carbon tax and excise duty is removed, this will reduce the prices of everything. Nothing says more than tax the poor into more poverty than VAT on food and clothes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,826 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Atlanta Autonomous Zone, anarchist collective. An activist shot and put a police officer in ICU, thankfully he was put down before he could shoot more.


    Like all the Anarchist Autonomous Zones this one has become a haven for sexual violence, crime and hard drugs. It's the type of individual that Socialist, Communist, Anarchist thinking appeals to.


    In England , several antifa activists attacked and robbed a woman in Newcastle, who had been a rally for women.


    It's about control, violence, the thrill of intimidation and demeaning others. Key drivers for the personality types that the radical left appeal to.


    Socialism, fascism, imperialism, fundamentalism, all rely on the same type of mindset and always end in mass murder. It's why the left always split, they have too many people who are really poor at working with others, absolutist thinkers and woe betide anyone who disagrees with them in the slightest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,287 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    And still, every single time socialism started and ended up under autocratic totalitarians.

    No it didn't.

    The simple pin prick in this silly effort is the British Labour Party and the various Socialist parties of all flavours that have existed throughout Western Europe. Your incredibly blinkered view on this is clouding your ability see anything other than your limited opinion on the matter.

    I suggest you put your politics aside and crack open a couple of history books instead.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Cordell


    They were/are not socialists, they were social-democrats. And champagne socialists some (most) of them to begin with.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,287 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    The Labour party was started by Socialists. Keir Hardie was a Socialist.

    Read your history and stop with the silly nonsense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    The Labour Party under Corbyn was riven with Anti-Semitism. The ECHR report highlights how bad it was there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,507 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    "Too many on the Left today see "the Jew" as capitalism in an ethnic form and the struggle against one as part of the struggle against the other."

    No, it's BDS propaganda that's stirred up the left. Nothing to do with capitalism. Just middle-eastern states using the Palestinian's plight as a stalking horse. Plus, as always, anti-semitism is there just below the surface. The 'Jew as capitalist...' I'd say you need to talk to Marjorie Taylor Green about the Rothschilds for that one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,632 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    See, this is a perfect example of how wide of the mark you guys are in challenging the premise of this thread.

    You've posted here isolated events by individuals or very small groups as what I presume to be your latest 'both sides' attempt.

    Look again at the massively impactful examples I've given of what is affecting society and compare that to these events (unacceptable and tragic as they are) and ask yourself are you comparing apples with apples.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Cordell


    What are you talking about? However bad things are being now, or however bad they are perceived to be, they are much better than they ever were in those socialists heavens - half of Europe, not isolated events. It is the right wing politics that create the wealth that allow us to afford be left wing in some aspects of society.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,632 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    When you said 'socialist heavens', what have you in mind? You've this mad fascination with history instead of modern day or recent times that we all lived through.

    The right wing politics creating the wealth you refer to has the top 1% of the global population holding 46% of the global wealth and the bottom 50% holding 0.8% iirc.

    8 hour days, work place safety, paid overtime, holidays, laws against exploitation and discrimination were all left wing initiatives gained through unionization and advocating against the right wing mindset.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,507 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    ^^public schools, end of child labour, labour unions, public health services ...



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Cordell


     You've this mad fascination with history instead of modern day or recent times that we all lived through.

    Yes, you are right here, you didn't live through those times in one of these places, like I did. I know better, you don't. You just repeat slogans but until you really see with your own eyes how a socialist system looks like you will never believe me. I guess we're doomed to repeat the history at some point, maybe not us but give a couple generations.

    8 hour days, work place safety, paid overtime, holidays, laws against exploitation and discrimination

    All these are good things, no one can say otherwise. "advocating against the right wing mindset" you say? A happy worker is a productive worker I say, the kind of worker that doesn't get crazy ideas like maybe it's time to own the factory. It's all a delicate balance, and when it swings too much off the center things get bad.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,632 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    You don't even know what locations I was referring to so hold off on stating you know better than me.

    I'm referring to 21st century societies because than is what is relevant and that is what the focus of the OP is.

    So leave your back in the day stories for the grandkids, it isn't relevant to what is impacting us today, nor is it something that anyone is calling for on here.



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