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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,200 ✭✭✭crisco10


    Nuclear produces 99% of our electricity??

    Because Wind produced 34% in 2022, and similar numbers above 30% in 2021 and 2020 also.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Nuclear power plants can't legally be built here though

    And then there's the issue of waste

    Oh and back up for nuclear too

    There's so many reasons why 95% of investment is going into wind and solar globally

    The only ones investing into nuke plants are govts trying to prop up a dying industry

    There will be some new nuke plants opened around the world and the total power generated will increase, slightly, but its overall share of the power generation pie will decrease.

    Nuke power has always been and will remain, niche



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,200 ✭✭✭crisco10



    In the context of a report analysing 2022, introduction of Nuclear to the discussion is whataboutery..

    The way you phrase it is like the wind industry have been shutting doen Nuclear development on its own. To me it looks like Nuclear has been politically dead (rightly or wrongly) for about 30 years at least. The wind industry only came into being in any real way in Ireland about 25 years ago.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    2 new gas power plants will be "hydrogen ready", whatever that means




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    He got Solar installation grant,(for all houses built before 2021,no BER requirement)) right now I can get cavity wall insulation grant and attic insulation grant even though my house is currently B2(BER done sept 21) the only requirement is that I get another BER after works are completed.Like I said they are massaging the figures.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,420 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Heavily subsidised electricity as you've already been told



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭ps200306


    So someone posted a link to a newspaper article. I responded to it and said it was inaccurate. You chirped up to tell me it didn't say what I said it said. I referred you to the exact quote. Now you're telling me you never read the article in the first place. Maybe less of the wild goose chases in future?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭ps200306


    2 new gas power plants will be "hydrogen ready", whatever that means

    It means someone finally copped on that we desperately need to improve our fossil fuel plants, but wanted to toss a mollifying bone to the Green fanatics.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The solar PV grant doesn't fall under the retrofit scheme, its a different scheme.

    You can get panels installed as part of various schemes, but the solar PV grant scheme is a standalone scheme.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,200 ✭✭✭crisco10


    Tbf, not a wild goose chase. We were discussing the same original article, just reported in different ways (id read silicon republics report). And equally, you only brought it back to consumers after a discussion around how prices are determined (and how wind benefits it) in the meantime.

    And I still disagree with your statement that its all lies. Wholesale prices and retail prices are intricately linked in any business.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    We do'nt know if they included solar in their 27k figure, but we now know that they included small things like attic insulation unless you actually believe that they retrofitted 27k houses last year as per Eamon Ryans description of a retrofit in October 22.You can wriggle all you want but it does not alter the fact that I can currently get a cavity wall and attic insulation grant even though I am in a B2 house and I will be included in the 2023 stats, laughable.😂



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    As I said, contact the dept for details on the figures

    Or don't, probably suits the conspiracy theory better if you work off a guess anyway



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭ps200306


    Tbf, not a wild goose chase. We were discussing the same original article, just reported in different ways (id read silicon republics report).

    Who's "we"? I responded to only one article -- the one posted. Here it is to refresh your memory:

    And equally, you only brought it back to consumers after a discussion around how prices are determined (and how wind benefits it) in the meantime.

    Nope. I explicitly mentioned consumers in the only comment I made on it before you jumped in. Here's that post to refresh your memory:

    And I still disagree with your statement that its all lies. Wholesale prices and retail prices are intricately linked in any business.

    Yes, but Baringa have given us nothing to compare it to. (I'd also point out that they assumed all non-renewable power was from gas when, in fact, a third of it is from oil and coal). It's been the worst year ever for gas prices, yet for much of the year the gas price was barely above the REFIT strike price for wind power (and is currently well below it). Would be nice to see all the previous years when we were getting gouged for wind power compared to gas prices. And the alleged savings in August were less than half those in March, even though the gas price was 50% higher in August ... a good demonstration that wind power doesn't save anything unless the wind is blowing. In fact, the variation in these "savings" bears little resemblance to the variation in gas prices at all:




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    They are peaking plant From https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2023/0118/1349380-bord-gais-new-power-plants/ "The plants are capable of moving from a standing start to full power generation in the space of six minutes"

    From your link : It is set to take 15 months to build and will be in operation for up to five years. ... It’s expected to run for up to 500 hours a year and only four hours a day when it is needed.

    €250m for 200MW + fuel costs. But you don't need keep them running as batteries should give you enough time to spin them up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Now this is interesting.

    What waste does it produce? There must be some downside to it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Not when demand is way over wind generation on any single day.

    What if something happened to our gas supply that particular windless day/week?

    No electricity would be what would happen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah I saw that, just would love to know what hydrogen ready means. I'm guessing it means they be able to take a % mixed in with gas as opposed to full hydrogen



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    It's a sales pitch for now. They can run on a mix but to go full hydrogen they'll need a retrofit kit installed once they are fully developed. All the big manufacturers of generators are pushing this now. It's a solid idea and one we should be doing more of IMO. Especially upgrading the fuel oil and coal plants.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users Posts: 44 LaoisWeather


    If you have Facebook - this very short video is worth a view: https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=557781579705766



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight



    "An Allam cycle plant uses the carbon dioxide to turn the turbines and then sequesters it for sale to customers that use the CO2 for everything from fuel to building materials to food."

    Globally, some 230 million tonnes (Mt) of carbon dioxide (CO2) are used every year. The largest consumer is the fertiliser industry, where 130 Mt CO2 is used in urea manufacturing, followed by oil and gas, with a consumption of 70 to 80 Mt CO2 for enhanced oil recovery. Other commercial applications include food and beverage production, metal fabrication, cooling, fire suppression and stimulating plant growth in greenhouses. Most commercial applications today involve direct use of CO2.


    It's not even sequestering the CO2 like the Norwegians were doing in gas fields. It only works if there's a market for CO2 and there isn't.

    That 230m of CO2 could be produced by burning 63m tonnes of carbon China alone produced 3,902m tonnes of coal in 2020.

    The main product though, urea is rapidly converted to ammonium carbonate, this may lead to losses at or near the surface of the soil or do damage to young roots or germinating seeds so there is no guarantee that urea will continue be used as much in the future. And the usage in the oil and gas industry would be produced locally. That's 90% of CO2 usage already. So you are down to 6.3m tonnes of carbon, Moneypoint used to use 2m tonnes a year so you couldn't even power Ireland with the amount of CO2 that would saturate global markets.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭ps200306



    Been following the Allam cycle since it was a thing, and as far as I can see it's a game changer. MIT named it as a breakthrough technology. Yes, of course, there is no such thing as an energy source without downsides and I will try to point out both the good and the bad. You can Google it yourself but here's my potted summary. (Apologies for the longish post).

    It's an oxyfuel cycle. That means burning the fuel in a pure oxygen stream. Two immediate upsides are no NOx (because there's no air and no nitrogen involved), and much higher combustion temperatures. Higher temps mean higher efficiency for basic thermodynamic reasons. The increase in efficiency largely makes up for the extra energy and cost involved in producing the oxygen, which requires a cryogenic air plant.

    However, what goes through the combustor is actually not just fuel and oxygen but in fact is 95% carbon dioxide. CO2 is the working fluid for this process. Compare it to a gas turbine where the combustion products are the working fluid, or a steam cycle where you boil water to produce the working fluid. In the Allam cycle a lean stoichiometric mixture of fuel and O2 is incorporated into the CO2 working fluid and passes through the combustor. It exploits the very useful property of CO2 that above pressures of 75 bar it becomes a supercritical fluid. Supercriticality means that the fluid expands to fill a container (like a gas) but has a density approaching that of a liquid. In the Allam cycle it has half the density of water.

    This high density leads to the next advantage -- the turbine is tiny compared to a conventional gas turbine. (Picture the difference in size between a water turbine and a wind turbine). You need special alloys to cope with the very high combustion temperatures, but this has already been cracked by Toshiba who I believe are providing the turbines. This is the only non-standard part of the whole plant which otherwise needs only pre-existing commercially available components. Apart from the heat recuperator and the higher density working fluid, the Allam cycle is essentially the same as the Brayton cycle in a conventional gas turbine.

    At the cold end of the turbine, the fluid is still very hot and you can't afford to lose that energy. In a combined cycle gas turbine you would heat water for a secondary steam cycle. In the Allam cycle, a heat recuperator transfers the heat back to the input end of the process. In the cooling waste stream, water has now condensed and can be removed (yes, the Allam cycle actually produces fresh water). You are now left with a waste stream consisting of 100% CO2. Most of this is returned for recompression, reheating by the recuperator, and sent back to the combustion stage. The remainder is a sequestration-ready stream of CO2.


    So what are the upsides? The plant is very efficient, at about 60% including the energy needed for air separation. No NOx is produced. The outputs are water and pipeline-ready CO2. I believe maximum efficiency relies on some water cooling after the heat recuperator stage but for slightly reduced efficiency you can use air cooling. That makes the plant suitable for arid areas without easy access to cooling water. With the small turbine and no cooling towers, the plant is smaller than conventional thermal plants. With its inherent emissions capture the it gets an additional revenue stream from carbon credits and is future-proofed against environmental regulations, unlike current fossil plants. 8 Rivers Capital has suggested that an energy price of $33/MWh is achievable. A concept for a coal-burning version of the plant has been produced.

    The downsides? Not many, but there are a number of unknowns. The technology has been proven at scale over the last four years of operation of a demo plant. However, CAPEX costs for construction are not yet fully known since no utility scale plant has been completed. The economic model depends on the sale of industrial gases as well as energy production. The ASU produces cryogenic nitrogen and argon as well as the oxygen for combustion. In early plants the CO2 stream is also expected to be sold for industrial use, including for enhanced oil recovery from wells (which will send shivers up Green spines). In the future, the aim has to be carbon sequestration but that depends on suitable sites. The cost to an Allam cycle plant is projected at $5 to $20 per MWh, depending on location. This can be offset against carbon credits. Obviously, fossil fuels are a finite resource and there are reasons other than GHG emissions to get off them eventually. But given we are going to keep burning them for a long, long time despite Green protestations, the Allam cycle lets us do it guilt free.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,126 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    That press release didn`t happen to mention by any chance that when it came to that 34%, as far as the consumer was concerned that 34% might as well have been from gas as from wind, as under the marginal pricing policy those wind generators were paid the same wholesale price per unit supplied as gas ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,055 ✭✭✭patnor1011


    Couple videos out showing it was just a PR stunt.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Careful now. You will get lumped in with the "deplorables".

    Elites in Davos strategize on how to fight ‘right-wing' groups: ‘Hit back’

    Fighting back against the "right wing" and the "disinformation" it spreads is a critical step for restoring trust in nongovernment organizations (NGOs) that are working with governments and other organizations on projects aimed at "improving the state of the world," according to participants on a panel Tuesday at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland.

    <snip>

    "My hypothesis on that is right-wing groups have done a really good job of disenfranchising NGOs," he said. "They’ve challenged the funding sources. They’ve associated you with Bill Gates and George Soros. They’ve said that you’re world people, as opposed to actually what you are, which is local."

    <snip>

    Another panelist, United Way Worldwide President Angela Williams, said policymakers need to find more approachable ways to present their ideas. As one example, she said the prospect of banning gas stoves can be a difficult subject for many poor Americans and needs to be couched the right way.

    Yes, you should check the funding of climate NGOs, As well as taxpayers, much of it comes from about a dozen billionaires, the type that use those private planes seen in Davos. One of the big ones to watch is European Climate Foundation, it's a bundling organisation and it distributes funds to Irish NGOs. In addition, considering the money some NGOs get gifted by the government courtesy of the Irish taxpayer can they really be considered non-government? Another is Grantham foundation, it's behind the funding of people pushing weather attribution studies, you know the headlines by now "it's fierce mild, must be climate change". There is the The Children’s Investment Management Fund, nothing nefarious about that you might say, until you realise it's found by billionaire Christopher Hohn, who once employed present day British prime minister Rishi Sunak and also provided funds to Extinction rebellion, how about the Glasgow Financial Alliance for Net Zero, Lots of money floating around, the NGOs are picking up the notes falling from the billionaires tables.


    What else is notable in that article above is the theme among the media presstitutes of "how can we be of service (to you billionaires)", that line I highlighted "needs to be couched in the right way", openly admitting they intend to help billionaires deny poor people the use of energy to carry on basics like cooking. A public relations campaign started in the last few weeks in the USA, telling Americans that gas stoves are bad for them.

    Gas-burning stoves in kitchens across America are responsible for roughly 12.7 percent of childhood asthma cases nationwide — on par with the childhood asthma risks associated with exposure to secondhand smoke, according to a study. The peer-reviewed study, published in the International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health, adds fuel to a burgeoning debate over the potential threats that gas stoves pose to the planet and public health. source

    This "research" is little more than flimsy propaganda and do note it was peer reviewed!. If you dig into how the research was conducted, where it was published, and how the media’s fear machine was kicked into overdrive. It's yet another example of all that is wrong with the modern academia-media-government complex, a behemoth where actual science is rarely practiced but the word itself is cynically abused in the name of politics. Strange this would pop up considering the gas supply problems and costs in Europe.

    Irish media are not too far behind with fear mongering: Are gas cookers causing health problems? (RTE)

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,200 ✭✭✭crisco10


    Have we moved on from "all lies" (not true) to wind only saves us money when the wind blows (absolutely true)?

    What could Baringa compare it to, as discussed previously, when discussing realised savings, the baseline by definition is fictional.

    The information re cost of wind is publicly available already. The CRU calculate the (additional) cost of wind in their annual calculation of the PSO

    :


    So you can see the cost of renewables in each year, and in it's highest year, it was ~€300m, and at this point Onshore wind accounts for most of the Renewable figure. The negative figure in 22/23 is only part of the savings too, as the PSO only accounts for negative payments on RESS CfD contracts, not REFIT ones (because they don't exist). So even if you half Baringa's number to 1 billion, wind power pays 3 or 4 years of the worst PSO back in one year like the last. And if you take Baringa's number, that obviously doubles.

    Can you explain what you mean by "gas price was barely above REFIT strike price"? Is that gas price for generation (kWhe) or gas supply (kWg)? and I'm not sure what REFIT strike price means? Wind assets bid in to the SEM at prices less than REFIT (i.e. they bid at their marginal rate), and then got topped up to REFIT by the PSO (if necessary). So assuming you meant gas generation price, it's relation to €80/Mwh has no impact on the System Marginal Price.

    Finally, the assumption re gas is valid for 2 reasons. 1) Coal will rarely set the SMP, coal plants are slow response to will buildout the baseload, and tend to bid in on the basis of being cheaper per unit due to economies of scale. 2) Most of our peaker plants are gas, and peakers are the marginal price setters the majority of the time.

    Granted, they probably could have accounted for some oil generation in there, rather than 100% gas. But oil prices have also been high in the last year so the directionality of the story would be similar I imagine.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭paddyisreal


    All so the greenies can drive an ev and save the planet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    I think you are conflating humans prospering with the planet prospering. Cancer & Leprosy also prosper.

    In nature, species that damage the environment die out, however humans have the ability to continue on regardless, up to a point.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭kabakuyu


    You are full of it,common sense tells me and should tell you that 26k homes were not retrofitted in the period Oct-DEC 2022, but keep believing the greens ya deluded gobdaw.



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