Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Enoch Burke turns up to school again despite sacking - read OP before posting

Options
14142444647404

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭questioner22


    "Faithful to the Last Will and Testament of Andrew Wilson, made in 1724, Wilson’s Hospital School maintains a distinctive Church of Ireland ethos , fostering Christian practice and teaching, promoting dignity and respect for the individual and constantly committed to the provision of a caring family atmosphere in which education can flourish."

    The Spiritual development of our students is pivotal in our ethos. Daily assembly features an act of worship with Bible reading and prayer. All boarders attend Chapel Services on Sunday night and all classes are taught Religions Education. Students participate in many services throughout the year such as Harvest Thanksgiving, Christmas Carol Service and Confirmation. We are proud of our Church of Ireland heritage. Students of all faiths are welcome, providing there is an acceptance of our ethos.




  • Registered Users Posts: 40,006 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    I'm talking about the Boggles Brigade

    Excuse me?

    I mean I like the sound of it, but what in the name Jaysus are you talking about?



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    And what's the problem with a trans pupil participating in all that?



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    funny how you quoted this but none of your posts reflect it

    promoting dignity and respect for the individual



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Now we know you're taking the proverbial.

    Changing names is a fundamental part of Christianity. Taking a husband's name forms a huge part of most marriages. All of the Jews in the New Testament had two names, a Jewish one and a Hebrew one, anyone without two would create a new one as required (Paul/Saul and Naomi/Mara). In Genesis 17, God HIMSELF changes names: "the Lord changed Abram's name to Abraham and Sarai's name to Sarah."

    I mean, even the Pope changes their name when they are appointed. Christianity has no issue with names being changed. It's the slack-jawed troglodytes who are using religion as an excuse to force their wants upon others who take issue with it, yourself included.

    But anyway, this isn't about changing names it's about changing their pronouns.

    As for pronouns, all of the Abrahamic religions use the pronoun "He" to refer to God. All of them, all of the time. The most famous passage of them all reads:

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    You either haven't got a clue what you're talking about when it comes to Christianity, or you're hiding behind religion as an excuse to vilify, torment, humiliate and denigrate a feckin schoolchild because you believe in a 2000 year old zombie Jewish carpenter.

    My money's on both.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 23,274 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    The only part of the disciplinary procedure that can be skipped is the sanction. Let me explain. Below are the 5 sanctions available.

    1. Verbal warning
    2. First written warning
    3. Second written warning
    4. Final written warning
    5. Dismissal

    Gross misconduct allows an employer to skip steps 1, 2 and 3 and go straight to steps 4 or 5. That's the part of the process that can be skipped (step 1, 2, 3 or 4). What can't be skipped is the right to fair procedure. You can't skip hearings, giving the employee the right to see evidence against them, the right to have their say, to be present at meetings they are legally allowed to be at etc.

    I agree that Burke has acted the cnut but unfortunately if the school didn't follow procedures then Burke could win out. I'm not saying he will, I'm just saying it's a possibility.

    This bit here seems to show that the school may not have followed procedure.

    The employee against whom the allegation has been made should be given copies of all written notes prior to and during the investigation, e.g. witness statements, details of the alleged misconduct, notes. He should also be allowed representation at any meetings during the investigation process.

    It does appear that the Board may have discussed the report into Burke's behaviour at a meeting without giving him the option of being present at that meeting - which looks like a breach of procedure.

    The report itself may have been flawed too, as referenced by the Judge during the injunction hearing a few days ago. And a flawed report would be unfair on Burke, so this looks like another breach of procedure.

    It's unfortunate but most of the onus to follow procedure is on the employer. That doesn't give the employee free rein to act the bollix, far from it but I've seen it in personal injury claims a 100 times. The employee can do loads of things wrong but once the employer does one thing wrong, they have a serious battle on their hands.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    It could well be genuine. I'd imagine they are under a serious amount of stress.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,282 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Wouldn't it be mad if a woman got married and asked people to use her new name just because she is married. Scandalous!



  • Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭CowboyTed


    Sorry, but you must be mis informed...

    Mr. Burke behaviour was the reason he was suspended... In a public function he behaved in a aggressive manner towards the Principle of the school after repeatedly asked by the principle to bring this up at a later and more appropriate time.

    That is why he was suspended.

    He escalated from there...



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 16,204 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Undiplomatic?


    BTW, can you show that this was a new policy? The principle said there was a trans student. They said teachers should refer to them as they/them. There's no indication that the school rewrote the policies. They implemented existing policy didn't they? And it didn't even apply to burke since he didn't even teach the student in question.

    Burke interrupted and harassed the principle at a school church service.

    Burke refused to leave school after he was suspended following disciplinary action.

    Burke refused to leave after the school went to the courts.

    And even after he went to prison and got released, he started turning up at the school again.


    The guy's crazy. And it's all the fault of his parents who brainwashed him from a young age. He and his family have stood outside hospitals linking gay people to pedophilia. I've seen them in the street in Castlebar preaching. They're the irish equivalent of the westboro baptist church. And not just in beliefs. That church is formed around a family who were raised cut off from the entire world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,065 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Surely you realise that 'verbal abuse' as a term is very subjective???

    Ridiculous stereotyping nonsense, as mentioned above I know of a home schooling family in our area and they are fine upstanding people whose children are getting on well in life. You do your arguments no favour with rubbish like this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,249 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    This is all correct. Any potential failure to follow the rules to the letter will result in the school and dept having to make a payout. What I'm arguing is that it wouldn't mean reinstatement to his post.

    The WRC will check that the process was followed correctly. This is all.

    I'd imagine that if there were any flaws so far in the process the schools legal reps and the gobshites reps would have highlighted this so far.

    Enochs recorded carry on yesterday and his failure to abide by the suspension and directions not to return to the school are 100% a sackable offense even if the original suspension wasn't warranted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,006 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Huh?

    No one has skipped the hearing, well apart from Burke.

    We are at the hearing stage now.

    Stage 5 in your link.

    Part 4 in the guidance from the Department.

    Again this is a school, he is a teacher so he gets a final stage. Appeal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭CowboyTed


    • the school bring in the policy and the principal advises staff
    • Burke objects as to the policy to the school on grounds of his beliefs
    • Burke berates the Principal at a high profile social event. He was asked a number times to bring it up at a more appropriate time, he chased the principal until other staff had to physically get in his way.
    • School suspends on full pay until a disciplinary process can be done
    • Burke continues to attend
    • School gets injunction to stop Burke attending
    • Burke continues to attend
    • Burke is jailed for contempt of court injunction
    • Burke is released
    • Burke continues to attend




  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭questioner22


    The issue is with requiring others to agree with their life choice (or choice made by the parents).

    The school is dishonest in how it presents itself.

    I'd blame the school more than the parents really.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    that enoch had to separated from the principal by another teacher tells me enough. he wasn't suspended for being undiplomatic. their behaviour yesterday at the hearing shows how they behave in public. and i really dont care about the family you have probably just made up. we are talking about a family with a long history of acting like gowls that march in step at all times normally accompanied by the mother that home-schooled them. that looks like control to me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭CowboyTed


    So they were meant to ignore it and let every teacher do that...

    Would the students be allowed to do it too...

    So harassing and pursuing the principle around a social event until people had to physically stop you would be some what acceptable?

    I don't know what your school was like but end of year school functions where the parents come in are considered to be probably the biggest even of the year. It is the end of the journey for many students in the group, a sad but exciting time.

    Mr. Burke came to that event with an agenda and was determined to disrupt it and embarrass the school. Sorry that is highly unacceptable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    It is requiring staff working in the school to respect the basic dignity of the student, not to agree or disagree with anything.

    But you seem to keep avoiding the question about the conflict between Christianity and being trans. What is the specific conflict here that you're referring to?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,249 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    Just to add Mr. Burke needs to be very very careful from here on in.

    If the courts decide that his contempt of court should become a criminal matter then he won't be able to pass any AGS vetting. This could happen because in my view at this stage returning to the school and his harassment yesterday of good honest people is a breach of the peace.

    So you could have situation whereby the school are found to have not followed the code of conduct and disciplinary procedures correctly. Mr Burke, however unlikely it would be is reinstated but now has a criminal record so cannot take up the position.

    Senior Hurling now lads.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭questioner22


    First names are obviously used to address students by.

    You can hardly compare getting married to getting surgery etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,413 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    there was no mention of surgery. they were simply asked to call a student by a different name. what particular tenet of religion does that break? you have been asked that question several times now and your refusal to answer is very telling.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,204 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    And people change their names to Irish variations all the time.


    Plus, he didn't teach the student or have any contact with them.

    It's be like me complaining about your neighbour changing their name. Just in case I happened to bump into them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Lads, he'll have the Garda Vetting Bureau up in court too. 😁



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    School is a Church of Ireland, which very much has a live and let live line on things. I think most CoI parents wouldn't be too happy if the school suddenly started to take a fundamentalist stance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,774 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    By the way, a criminal record isn't necessarily a bar to being a teacher. What would bar him would be a criminal conviction that might lead to a concern that there'd be a safeguarding issue, i.e. a sexual offence etc.

    And if he was reinstated, he would be deemed to have never left so it's not like he is taking up a new position.



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Why not? It's a valid comparison.

    They are both changes of name.

    And whose getting surgery?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭randd1


    Even if he does go back to teaching, there may the possibility that the students of the school will not accept being thought by him. Didn't a good few of them walk out of the school mass when he interrupted it?

    He might end up back in the classroom only for the students to say "no, we're not having him and his ignorance".



  • Registered Users Posts: 519 ✭✭✭Morris Garren


    Eh.... you blamed the parents the last time you apportioned blame. That was after being (rightly) lambasted to death here for blaming the child originally. Now it's the schools fault. They are 'dishonest'.... and therefore to blame.? What next... the school janitor for working on the Sabbath????



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    Was the request not along the lines of having to use they/them pronouns?

    If the request was just to use a different name, would the same course of events happen?

    Possibly...possibly not...



Advertisement