Russia - threadbanned users in OP

Yes of course there'll be a new EU alliance and everyone will agree Germany shouldn't be part of it.

What fantasy planet do you live on?

But I'm talking about the HUGE amount of defensive weapons claimed they sent ,by no means have they sent a Huge amount of defensive weapons, someone is mixing pledged aid and defense systems in the same word ,

America has sent tens of billions in weapons and vehicles this is a fact ,

Germany spent 2 billon not in weapons but in other aid too ,but they have begrudgingly sent some weapons systems while making excuses and publicly blocking other systems such as Maraders ifv, patriot systems,and others now including MBTs .

What's the point in being the largest if you can't be relied upon ? Much better to have lots of smaller countries rather than a big one with too much influence.

There was talk of an EU defense force. How much use would Germany be ?

No goalposts have moved.

You were asked how much of the promised aid has actually been delivered? You were unable to answer that question.

Of course they were happy to sacrifice Ukraine. Where was this support when the US and UK were helping Ukraine pre invasion to bolster their defences? You were unable to answer that question. To call it whataboutery, when it is directly related to the topic under discussion is really a desperate attempt at deflection.

Meanwhile they were bolstering Russia. The gas must flow.

Germany's government is happy to sacrifice Ukraine's interests to get the gas back flowing, as far they think they can get away with it in terms of German public opinion. There's no way they could spin not providing humanitarian \ financial aid and limited defensive weapons. They are desperately trying to find excuses not to send tanks - everything from the tanks not being ready, to BS about not receiving formal requests and now playing the WW2 victim card.

It's clear the German government would be perfectly happy with a peace deal right now leaving Russia in possession of annexed territory, and likely further, a neutered Ukraine. The gas must flow.

Let's not forget the discussion moved onto Germany's motives because your claims about the tanks being a risk of causing WW3 were thoroughly debunked. And not just by me.

So your little digs about "fruity personal theories" don't hold any water.

Looks like possibly a wound to me, though I don't think a tourniquet is called for. Wear an Orc uniform in an area the Orcs haven't actually won, expect an Orc prize.

Nope, I think things have changed a lot regarding Russia-Germany relations since Putin's invasion Feb last year. I don't believe Germany particularly wants "Putin's gas" any more, or is "happy to sacrifice Ukraine's interests" etc. to get it again. You've jumped from them not supplying tanks (yet) to that.

On the "peace deal" aspect I don't think they (like pretty much any country in Europe) would be happy at this point, given level of resistance Ukraine put up, success it has had, and extent of support received, with Russia successfully conquering a large amount of land, killing so many people, committing war crimes + then getting it all blessed in retrospect by a shaky agreement with a liar like Putin.

I think it is just pure fear now on part of Germany (as regards the tanks). I believe similar fear/reluctance is there for other countries incl. US (around the supply of likes of tanks, long range weapons, aircraft) as others have mentioned. In fairness to UK, they seem to have pushed the envelope out on classes of weapons that can be supplied to Ukraine.

What is the nature of this 'fear' exactly?

Because I don't buy this angle of German tanks being a Russian trigger.

Why doesn't Poland - closer to the war than Germany or the US, a country invaded by German tanks - have this fear of it being a trigger?

I don't see any evidence of a commitment from Germany to help Ukraine in recovering its lost territory.

There are logistical issues wrt some of the US weaponry.

These do not apply to Leopard tanks, which are a much better fit for the requirements of Ukraine.

You're a waffler.

Its never 1 topic. Its always shifting.

Thats because you know if you're pinned down the facts will show you up.

So thats what Im going to do.

You said, Germany would be ... quote ... "happy to sacrifice Ukraine". Here is an incomplete list of aid proving you're waffling.

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/09/fact-sheet-on-german-military-aid-to.html?m=1

Surface-To-Air Missile (SAM) Systems (1 System)

 1 IRIS-T SLM* System (Three Launchers Per System) [October 2022]

Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft Guns (30)

 30 Gepards* [Training started in June 2022. Delivered from July to September 2022]

Multiple Rocket Launchers (5)

 5 227mm M270 ''MARS'' [Arrived to Ukraine in July (3) and October 2022 (2)]

Laser-Guided Rocket Systems (20)

 20 70mm Laser-Guided Rocket Launchers On Pick-Up Trucks [December 2022]

Self-Propelled Artillery (14)

 14 155mm PzH 2000s [April 2022. Training completed in May 2022. Arrived to Ukraine in June (7), July 2022 (3) and October 2022 (4)] (Delivered along with 10.500 155mm rounds)

Tanks (Unknown Number)

 T-72M1s [2022] (Delivered from Czech stocks in exchange for 15 Leopard 2A4 MBTs and 1 Büffel ARV through the 'Ringtausch' programme)

Infantry Fighting Vehicles (70)

 40 BMP-1A1s [Delivered from October 2022 onwards] (From Greek stocks in exchange for 40 Marder IFVs through the 'Ringtausch' programme)

 30 BVP-1s [November 2022] (From Slovak stocks in exchange for 15 Leopard 2A4 MBTs through the 'Ringtausch' programme)

Armoured Personnel Carriers (54)

 54 M113G3DK/G4DKs [July and August 2022] (M113s taken from Danish stocks and subsequently overhauled with German funding)

Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) Vehicles (50)

 50 Dingos [November and December 2022]

Man-Portable Air Defence Systems (3200)

 500 FIM-92 Stingers [March 2022]

 2700 9K32 Strela-2s [March 2022] (Former East German stocks)

Anti-Tank Weapons (23.800)

 900 Panzerfaust 3 RPGs [2022] (Delivered along with 3000 DM72A1 (PzF 3-IT) and 50 DM32 Bunkerfaust rounds)

 7.944 RGW 90 Matador RPGs** [Delivered from March 2022 onwards]

 14.900 DM31 And PARM DM22 Anti-Tank Mines [2022]

Anti-Drone Systems And Jammers (116)

10 Anti-Drone Guns* [2022]

55 Anti-Drone Sensors And Jammers* [2022] (Including 20 Frequency Range Extension Devices)

12 Electronic Anti-Drone Devices* [2022]

 2 Large Anti-Drone Jamming Systems* (Installed on HMMWV IMVs) [August 2022]

7 Radio Jammers* [August 2022]

30 Drone Detection Systems* [December 2022]

Radars (10)

 8 Ground Surveillance Radars* (Installed on HMMWV IMVs) [August 2022]

 1 Cobra Counter-Battery Radar System* [September 2022]

 1 TRML-4D [October 2022]

Surveillance Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (26+)

 Vectors** [June 2022]

Engineering Vehicles And Equipment (48)

 15 Bergepanzer 2 Armoured Recovery Vehicles (ARVs)* [August, October and December 2022]

 3 Brückenlegepanzer Biber Bridgelayers [November 2022]

4 Remote Controlled Mine Clearance Systems* [August 2022]

 6 HEP 70 Mobile Decontamination Vehicles [August 2022]

17 Heavy And Medium Bridge Systems* [November 2022]

Vehicles (660)

 13 Oshkosh M1070 Heavy Equipment and Tank Transporters* [November and December 2022]

Missing flag.png 12 Heavy Duty Trailer Trucks [December 2022]

 30 Armoured Volkswagen Amarok SUVs [2022]

 35 Heavy Duty 8x8 Trucks [December 2022]

 280 All-Terrain Vehicles (ATVs), Minibuses And Trucks [2022]

 143 Pick-Up Trucks [2022]

 107 Border Protection Vehicles (Iveco VM90s, Iveco ACL 90s and Renault TRM 2000s) [October, November, December 2022 and January 2023]

36 Ambulances [November and December 2022]

6 Forklifts [October, November and December 2022]

2 Airport Fire Trucks [December 2022]

Small Arms (130)

 130 MG 3 General-Purpose Machine Guns [2022] (Delivered along with 500 spare barrels and breechlocks)

Ammunition

 Additional Missiles For The IRIS-T SLM SAM System* [November and December 2022]

 Ammunition For The 227mm M270 ''MARS'' MLRS [July and October 2022]

 53.000 Rounds Of 35mm Ammunition For Gepard SPAAG [Delivered from June 2022 onwards]

 4000 Rounds Of 35mm Practice Ammunition For Gepard SPAAG [August 2022]

 18.500 155mm Artillery Rounds For PzH 2000 SPG [Delivered from June 2022 onwards] (Including at least 1000 flare and 2000 smoke rounds)

 SMArt 155 Guided Artillery Rounds For PzH 2000 SPG [Delivered from June 2022 onwards]

 60.000 Rounds of 40mm Ammunition For Automatic Grenade Launchers [September and December 2022]

 3 Million Rounds Of 5.56×45mm Ammunition [2022]

 5 Million Rounds Of 7.62×51mm Ammunition [2022]

 14.1 Million Rounds Of Small Arms Ammunition [2022]

100.000 DM51/DM51A2 Hand Grenades [2022]

 3000 DM72A1 (PzF 3-IT) For Panzerfaust 3 [2022]

 50 DM32 Bunkerfaust Rounds For Panzerfaust 3 [2022]

 (Artillery) Ammunition [March and April 2022]

 5300 Explosive Charges [2022]

 100.000 Metres Detonating Cord [2022] (Delivered along with 450.000 detonators)

Military Clothing

 28.000 Helmets [2022]

 15 Palettes Worth Of Military Clothing (Including 1300 Bulletproof Vests) [2022]

 116.000 Winter Jackets [2022]

 80.000 Winter Trousers [2022]

 240.000 Winter Hats [2022]

 600 Safety Glasses [2022]

353 Night Vision Goggles [2022]

Miscellaneous Equipment

 MiG-29 Fighter Jet Spare Parts [2022]

 Mi-24 Attack Helicopter Spare Parts* [ November 2022]

 M2 Browning Heavy Machine Gun Spare Parts [2022]

38 Laser-Range Finders [2022]

20 Laser-Designators [2022]

 16 Palettes Worth Of Materiel For Explosive Ordnance Disposal [2022]

 290 Binoculars [2022]

 1 High Frequency Unit [August 2022]

 1 Radio Frequency System [2022]

 3000 Field Telephones [2022] (Delivered along with 5000 cable reels)

 200 Tents [2022]

 14.000 Sleeping Bags [2022]

 2646 Generators [2022]

 36.400 Wool Blankets [December 2022]

 148 Mobile Heating Systems [November and December 2022]

 405.000 Meal, Ready-to-Eat (MREs) [2022]

 Diesel And Gasoline [2022. Supplies ongoing]

 10 Tonnes Of AdBlue [2022]

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_aid_to_Ukraine_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War#G

• €1.83 billion in bilateral aid since 2014.
• Approx. €4 billion via the EU in the form of grants and loans since 2014.
• One mobile field hospital worth €5.3 million and associated training of medical staff in February 2022[228]
• One mobile field hospital in September 2022 in a joint project with Estonia.
• Evacuating and treating wounded Ukrainian soldiers in Germany since 2014.
• Deutsche Bahn initiated a "railbridge" in March 2022 and began delivering over 10,000 tons of humanitarian aid.

This is an incomplete list.

Other efforts include sharing satellite intelligence with Ukraine since April 2020.

And about a million refugees welcomed in and given 3 year work visas.

Tell me again in the context of all the above, and the bits Ive missed, how Germany would be happy to sacrifice Ukraine you absolute waffle-bag.

We haven't even started on the sky-high costs of implementing sanctions against Russia.

Or the re-jigging of Germanys entire economy to cut out Russian gas.

This is Germany "happy to sacrifice Ukraine". This is the country Gatling describes as cowards.

You would have to wonder who will buy German equipment, in the future, if they have to ask Germany's permission to use it or give it to someone else ?

And from the article you linked...

While ultimately positioning itself as a reliable partner of Ukraine, it can be argued that Berlin's communication to affirm its Ukraine stance and explain foreign policy goals has been nothing short of an unmitigated disaster.

SO all that and yet Leopard tanks from Poland would be a huge escalation risking WW3?

Pull the other one.

Poland, which has memories of being invaded by German tanks and would be the next country in the firing line if the war spread, knows it is BS.

And once again, where was the military support for Ukraine when threatened by Russia? It was the US and UK that provided the vital aid.

It is the same topic - Germany's support for Ukraine.

The German political classes could tolerate a Ukrainian defeat, the reversal of their energy political is a huge political embarrassment, and they are being led by public opinion into supporting Ukraine, not taking a lead in it.

I see no evidence of a German political commitment to Ukraine recovering its lost territories.

no please.

It looks like US allies can give what they like:

Either Biden is waffling or something is in the works:

Could it be that all the Leopard 2 talk is a smokescreen and that the deal has already been done and Ukrainian crews are currently training on them in the same way they have been training on Challengers, so when ukraine kicks off it's spring offensive - surprise ?

What a wonderful country,show compassion,get arrested.

We can hope, if so Germany are playing a blinder with their disinformation, I can see through the spin as BS but hopefully Russia cannot...

Would be delighted to be proven wrong :)