Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ulsteru20s · 22-01-2023 12:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120140440#Comment_120140440

Yea, that’s what I mean. The three guys you mention are pretty much essential to win anything.

ljsulster · 22-01-2023 11:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120139643#Comment_120139643

New kid on the block Harry Sheridan says hello- 122kg. Heaviest lock in Ireland

(according to ulsters website)

molloyjh · 22-01-2023 12:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128770#Comment_120128770

The complete lack of nuance in your position is just amusing. If we lose to France by a point in a belter of a game between 2 of the best sides in the world then so what? It just means we’re 2 fairly evenly matched sides and either side can win on any given day. Sure we might not even play France in the RWC anyway, so even if that game was an indicator as to how we compare to them it may end up being completely irrelevant. And if we do play then it will be in a different situation, at a different time with most likely somewhat different squads.

Ive made my position on what I think we should be getting from this championship clear. A title is important and if we don’t win that then it’ll be a disappointment. But again, the context and nuance within that will determine the wider opinion. Did we play well? What did we show in our game? What exactly were the issues? Are they easily fixed or are there bigger issues at play? Was mental weakness a part of it or was there issues about depth exposed? Did we just get unlucky at times with an unfortunate red card etc etc.

Take for example losing to France. Not all losses are equal. A 1 point loss in a great game is not the same as a 20 point loss in a poor one. Not when judging performances and especially not when looking to the future.

Setting the bare minimum expectation as the maximum possible result effectively allows you to give them no credit at all. Win all the games well and get the GS? Sure that’s exactly what they should have done. Get a bit unlucky or underperform even slightly just once and you’ve got the ammo you need to have another go.

Being very definitive about future performances is nothing short of hot takes. There are so many variables and things to consider that real life can easily make a mockery of that definitiveness. You need to be open to giving some wiggle room and judging things on the sum total of all their merits, not just the small handful of things you want to look at.

22-01-2023 12:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120141059#Comment_120141059

How did he go yesterday? Haven't got a chance to watch that match back yet.

aloooof · 22-01-2023 1:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120128770#Comment_120128770

If we can't beat France at home, how can we expect to have any chance of beating them in Paris in October?

Because performance and result, while related, are different. And a result in one game does not guarantee anything about the result in the next. (For example, Test 1 and 2 in NZ).

I think it’s possible to put in a losing performance that indicates we could be beat in Paris.

If we lose to any of them, then yes, it's fair to say we've gone backwards from having the New Zealand crowd booing their own team off at half time, such was the humbling we gave them in the first half.

To be fair, TRC, I think after the first Test, you were claiming this side were mentally weak?

They’ve already shown they can bounce back from a loss.

Interested Observer · 22-01-2023 1:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120141302#Comment_120141302

TRC will claim completely different and opposite things on different weeks to suit whatever argument he/she wants to make at a given time. After the first Racing game it was that Leinster were too reliant on taking them on up front via pick-and-go and maul tries. This week now that Leinster scored several really good long range tries through the backs, we need to go back to being worried about Leinster up front. I honestly can't believe so many people continue to engage. You literally cannot so much as have a proper conversation against non stop moving goalposts.

ljsulster · 22-01-2023 2:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120141225#Comment_120141225

Went really well imo, was one of few who stood up physically first half

Former Former Former · 22-01-2023 2:47pm

Sunday Times says Lowe is back in Ireland and will be available

Dubinusa · 22-01-2023 6:04pm

Just noticed that Joshua Brennan on the bench for Toulouse. I wonder if he could be enticed home?

Podge_irl · 22-01-2023 6:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120141184#Comment_120141184

I'm not going to pre-emptively brand a hypothetical a failure, but I don't know how anyone could not be massively disappointed with a loss at home to France after last year.

For me, context merely provides a basis for how much of a disappointment it would be.

Podge_irl · 22-01-2023 6:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120140440#Comment_120140440

I think that's fair, but I'd easily have him next on the list. He brings a multi-dimensional element to our backrow play that the potential replacements don't and frankly, I think the drop to Coombes or Conan from him is currently actually fairly large.

Lost Ormond · 22-01-2023 7:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120142475#Comment_120142475

No chance. He's lived in France since he's 1. He's in a Toulouse side that he's grown up supporting. He's played with Toulouse since he was 12.

22-01-2023 7:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120142858#Comment_120142858

Yeah it wouldn't be enticing him home as France is his home. We'd be poaching a foreign player.

dublin49 · 22-01-2023 7:46pm

Munsters scrum rock solid today,lucky we are home to France and England this year,Ryan should be brought back for world cup.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 22-01-2023 8:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120142475#Comment_120142475

If Toulouse choose to drop him at the end of his contract he may take an Irish offer. Toulouse is the first priority for him. The sense I've always gotten from him is that he has always been a Toulouse guy more than anything else. He feels more French than he does Irish but he does have a degree of feeling Irish.

ulsteru20s · 22-01-2023 9:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120143072#Comment_120143072

They don’t select for ireland based on how good you are in the scrum or at least not primarily. Its never been a focus.

The guy who should feel most aggrieved is Kleyn. At this point in time, he’s simply a much better player than McCarthy. McCarthy would have melted down against that Toulouse pack without the leinster pack around him.

I get why McCarthy is in the squad. He has a ton of potential and a great body. At the same time, i can’t help feel that he is at URC level of development. He just isnt ready for anything else. If Ryan went down injured, McCarthy is not ready to step in.

Crowley at the very least can hang at european level and at three different positions. I don’t even think you can say that about mccarthy.

22-01-2023 9:25pm

Big hope now is that there is no bad news over the next day or so on any of Ireland's key players for the 6N. Van der Flier and Doris both seemed to pick up knocks in the Leinster game, but seemed to be okay at the end of the game. Similarly, Tadhg Beirne seemed to be done multiple times in that battle in Toulouse, so fingers crossed he's all good.

leakyboots · 22-01-2023 9:32pm

Beirne looks tired, he's been flogged since October, or certainly played in multiple high intensity games

Interested Observer · 22-01-2023 9:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120143503#Comment_120143503

McCarthy would have melted down against that Toulouse pack without the leinster pack around him.

What a bizarre comment.

ulsteru20s · 22-01-2023 9:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120143610#Comment_120143610

He had more penalties than tackles (or a similar number) against a worse pack at home while in a better pack.

Why is it bizarre? I’m basically saying that a super raw inexperienced lock would have melted down if he had to replace a much more experienced and better player, while being surrounded by worse players. That doesn’t seem bizarre to me.

Dubinusa · 22-01-2023 10:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120143631#Comment_120143631

I doubt he'd have melted. He probably would do the best he can. If anyone should be aggrieved, say hi to Treadwell.

ulsteru20s · 22-01-2023 10:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120143725#Comment_120143725

He played pretty badly in a really good pack on Saturday. Toulouse away when you aren’t surrounded almost completely by international players is obviously a step too far for him.

I feel like people aren’t actually watching him play.

Treadwell should feel aggrieved but he also needs to start. He needs to convince mcfarland of that.

Edit: by melt down, i dont mean like start punching people or something. I just mean he would be obviously not fit for that level.

22-01-2023 10:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120143725#Comment_120143725

Nah, Treadwell has no right to be too aggrieved. He's been objectively average I would argue this season for Ulster.

It's a common theme/issue amongst Ulster tight five players (Tom Stewart excepted), but they are horrendous ball carriers. Treadwell is averaging 0.6m per carry (from 54 carries) this season for Ulster. For context on this number, here's a sample of other locks average carry number and their volume of carries: Tadhg Beirne - 1.6m from 67 carries, Jean Kleyn 1.3m from 94, Iain Henderson 1.2m from 48 carries, Ross Molony 1.2m from 56 carries, James Ryan 1.5m from 79 carries, Jason Jenkins 1.8m from 55 carries, Joe McCarthy 3.4m from 27 carries.

The only other equally abject carrier from the dataset I have is Alan O'Connor (0.7m from 63 carries). Treadwell is equally not particularly impactful at line out, disrupting opposition mauls and isn't a particularly high volume tackler either.

He's not bringing unique size to us. I think he's a decent, URC level player who is some level below what we need. I think Joe McCarthy is already a better player than him, but has the potential to be a way better player than him.

ulsteru20s · 22-01-2023 10:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120143835#Comment_120143835

I was surprised Treadwell did so well in NZ, because honestly i never really rated him either. I guess they saw something in him.

I’d say there are a number of locks in Ireland not in the ireland squad who are better than McCarthy as of right now in terms of contributing to winning.

Actually, I’d say Edogbo has shown himself to be better at nuts and bolts THL stuff this season… although I’m not sure why they jumped him in the lineout that much.

Interested Observer · 22-01-2023 10:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120143746#Comment_120143746

What is "melted down" meant to mean even? It's bizarre because it's not based on anything other than a scenario you've made up in your head. Anyway carry on.

ulsteru20s · 22-01-2023 10:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120143864#Comment_120143864

Yes, anything hypothetical is bizarre.

I don’t understand why people even reply if that is the basis of what they think. The whole world must just be this bizarre scary place to them.

There isn’t a very good ‘mccarthy is actually a good player right now’ argument so fans are coming at it from these weird angles.

pickarooney · 22-01-2023 10:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120142475#Comment_120142475

Home? He is at home.

22-01-2023 11:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120143854#Comment_120143854

I would say Jean Kleyn right now today is a better tight head lock than Joe McCarthy, but I wouldn't swap the 21 year old McCarthy for the 29-year old Kleyn. Kleyn isn't good enough to usurp any of our three primary locks, so it makes sense for McCarthy to occupy that other spot as a quasi developmental player. If James Ryan were hurt though, I think there would be a good argument for Kleyn being in the side at 5.

I don't think there are a "number" of locks other than that who are better than him, and I definitely don't agree that Edogbo is, as good as he looked.

ulsteru20s · 22-01-2023 11:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144003#Comment_120144003

I haven’t seen anything in game that would indicate anything other than ‘extremely talented, at least a year away from European level’. The penalties he gives away kind of scream that he isn’t sure what he’s supposed to be doing and is overwhelmed.

I’d say he has more upside than Edogbo but Edogbo makes more impact on games right now to me. He also just knows where to be.

I just don’t see the point of having a guy this far away in the squad honestly. And just drafting in Kleyn if Ryan gets injured in a world cup warm up is kind of risky. Like, he has to pick up the irish system in weeks?

Other locks who are better… Ahern (outplayed him by a margin on EI tour), Moloney (just watch difference with him on vs mccarthy on saturday), and Thornbury. Some of those are injured but they weren’t getting picked ahead when fit.

23-01-2023 12:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144074#Comment_120144074

The penalties he gives away kind of scream that he isn’t sure what he’s supposed to be doing and is overwhelmed.

Nah, this is OTT. You're making him sound like some sort of lumbering buffoon, just aimlessly running around the place.

He gave away three penalties yesterday.

First one after 6 mins - side entry at a ruck for a clear out on Wescelas Lauret. It was a right decision, and a clear penalty, but players give them away all the time. In this instance, JOB hadn't gotten a good clear out on Lauret, so Lauret was probably going to turn the ball over and McCarthy gambled and shifted him off the ball, and gave the penalty away.

Second one: He was pinged for not releasing after a carry. It was a correct decision, but it's not on McCarthy. Ala'alatoa missed his clear out.

Third one: 31 mins, he was pinged for tackling in the air (on defending a lineout, 5m from Leinster's line). It was again on Lauret, and to me, this one was harsh. He actually competes well for the ball and doesn't actually interfere with Lauret. Arguably, he could have been pinged on this for jumping across the lineout, but I think it would have again been harsh. Go and have a look at this penalty and tell me it was a particularly egregious penalty for a second row forward to concede.

Look at the good things he did too though - some absolutely super hits, and some brilliant reads in defence where he shows great awareness to drift and hit the ball carrier behind the gain line. Or the way he demolishes a Racing attacking maul in the Leinster 22 in the 28th min to win a turnover. He's definitely impetuous and lacks a bit of composure, but don't be OTT in the descriptions on him.

Some Edogbo context too - he played in 6 games, against the Dragons, Zebre, Connacht, the Bulls, Ulster and Connacht again. He did well in those, but the standard of a lot of those games was exceptionally poor. It wasn't European Cup or Australia in the Aviva level stuff.

On the other locks- Molony is not a like for like comparison. Ahern - jury is still out. He had a great game in the third game of the EI tour, but didn't do much the first day. Hasn't been healthy for long enough to form a clear view of how he's going for Munster really. Joe McCarthy was the best lock on the field by a distance in the Aviva last May when a second/third string Leinster crushed a Munster side who needed a result for a home QF. He was directly opposite Ahern that day. Thornbury is a joke - he's not anywhere near as good as McCarthy. I thought he was destined for bigger things, but he only has one pace and that is slow.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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