Qualifying to teach Maths at Second level

kelbal · 30-11-2017 12:13am #1

Hi guys,
I'm thinking about going down the road of secondary teaching, with Maths as my focused subject. I have a degree & masters in engineering which would get me some of the way towards meeting the Teaching Council requirements for Maths registration, but I'm pretty sure I'm still not up to scratch, in terms of the range of Maths topics and ECTS credits required.
I really couldn't face having to go back and do a degree or 2 years Masters in Mathematics, before I can even apply for the PME course (another 2 years). Does anyone know if there is any quicker, more intensive, route to raising your maths qualifications for Teaching Council criteria. Something like Open University modules?

thanks in advance

solerina · 30-11-2017 10:34am

You can definately do it via the Open University, I have a colleague who did that, she had maths in the first year of her degree. Find out what shortfalls you have and look up the OU modules to select those most suitable.

aratsarse101 · 01-12-2017 12:53pm

I did exactly what you are looking to do. Maybe four or five years ago. I had to do 3 modules with the Open University. They were very easy with maybe a half dozen assignments each and some exams at year end. You'd easily get the three done together as a hobby an evening a week or a bit more and be done in one year. I didn't go to any of the tutorials and just focussed on the online stuff and the booklets. They are basic and user friendly courses. The problem is what modules you need? Only Teaching Council can advise you on your particular requirements. The other problem is the cost. It's a bit of a racket because none of the material is directly related to LC Maths and certainly has nothing to do with Maths teaching as such.

doc_17 · 01-12-2017 8:19pm

Perhaps if you were living in Northern Ireland it might make it more cost effective?

kelbal · 01-12-2017 8:36pm

doc_17 wrote: »

Perhaps if you were living in Northern Ireland it might make it more cost effective?

I'm not. ðŸ€¨

RealJohn · 04-12-2017 12:52pm

kelbal wrote: »

I have a degree & masters in engineering which would get me some of the way towards meeting the Teaching Council requirements for Maths registration, but I'm pretty sure I'm still not up to scratch, in terms of the range of Maths topics and ECTS credits required.

Are you pretty sure or are you completely sure? What about physics? Would you be qualified to teach any secondary subject? Sometimes you just need to be able to get your foot in the door and based on your qualifications, it should be obvious to anyone what you’re at least as skilled in maths as the average business or biology teacher who had maths in first year in college and wound up teaching it.

First thing you need to know though is exactly what you can teach and how far short you are of other subjects. No point in speculating without having all of the information.

kelbal · 04-12-2017 1:14pm

RealJohn wrote: »

Are you pretty sure or are you completely sure? What about physics? Would you be qualified to teach any secondary subject? Sometimes you just need to be able to get your foot in the door and based on your qualifications, it should be obvious to anyone what you’re at least as skilled in maths as the average business or biology teacher who had maths in first year in college and wound up teaching it.

First thing you need to know though is exactly what you can teach and how far short you are of other subjects. No point in speculating without having all of the information.

I did get it assessed about 6 years ago and didn't come up to scratch on a number of mathematical areas. And if you look at the specific criteria on each subject (in the new guidelines on each subject) its very tough to be registered for Maths and Physics. There's numerous fields i know I definitely haven't covered. However, I am confident I'd be well able to teach Maths, I know the syllabus inside out. You pretty much have to have a dedicated degree in those topics. No wonder there's such shortages nowadays. Someone who has a dedicated degree in Maths or Physics is probably unlikely to then go into teaching with it. I heard from someone in teaching that only 6 new teachers qualified this year who are registered in Physics.

evolving_doors · 04-12-2017 3:59pm

kelbal wrote: »

I did get it assessed about 6 years ago and didn't come up to scratch on a number of mathematical areas. And if you look at the specific criteria on each subject (in the new guidelines on each subject) its very tough to be registered for Maths and Physics. There's numerous fields i know I definitely haven't covered. However, I am confident I'd be well able to teach Maths, I know the syllabus inside out. You pretty much have to have a dedicated degree in those topics. No wonder there's such shortages nowadays. Someone who has a dedicated degree in Maths or Physics is probably unlikely to then go into teaching with it. I heard from someone in teaching that only 6 new teachers qualified this year who are registered in Physics.

As regards the physics we can't say the numbers were low due to subject shortfall.
Knowing the syllabus is fine. Teaching methods is also a prerequisite.
Otherwise there's no need for teaching practice in the PME.

rainbowtrout · 05-12-2017 7:09pm

RealJohn wrote: »

Are you pretty sure or are you completely sure? What about physics? Would you be qualified to teach any secondary subject? Sometimes you just need to be able to get your foot in the door and based on your qualifications, it should be obvious to anyone what you’re at least as skilled in maths as the average business or biology teacher who had maths in first year in college and wound up teaching it.

First thing you need to know though is exactly what you can teach and how far short you are of other subjects. No point in speculating without having all of the information.

Or they could have the relevant qualification.

kelbal wrote: »

I heard from someone in teaching that only 6 new teachers qualified this year who are registered in Physics.

I don't understand the obsession with the media quoting figures on Physics.

The number of students taking pure physics degrees at third level is low. I did two years of Physics in Maynooth a couple of years ago to qualify as a physics teacher, in second year across all science degrees there were about 75 students taking physics modules. That included students doing pure physics degrees, double honours science degrees, the teacher training degree, and students who had physics modules as a component of another science degree. Once I hit third year and we got down to the nitty gritty of those who would actually graduate with a physics qualification, there were 25.

I'd imagine the other colleges could tell a similar story. It's not rocket science :pac: to imagine that the numbers going into the dip with physics are also small.

The other thing is that numbers doing the dip with physics are only ones ever stated in statistics reports. They never mention those taking teacher training degrees in science, which would bump the numbers up a bit more. UL (where I did my degree) would typically have two thirds of their graduating class opt for chemistry and the other third physics, either of which was taken along with biology and ag science. There were 11 physics teachers graduating with me.

I can't imagine that has changed much since I left.

Moody_mona · 05-12-2017 8:40pm

100% agree rainbowtrout. The most recent irish times article (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/only-six-graduates-in-training-to-be-physics-teachers-1.3307535?mode=amp) mentioned towards the end that it didn't include students from Trinity, Hibernia, or the undergraduate courses (UL, DCU and I'm pretty sure Maynooth too) and yet the dramatic, misinformed headline is all people reference.

rainbowtrout · 05-12-2017 9:54pm

Moody_mona wrote: »

100% agree rainbowtrout. The most recent irish times article (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/only-six-graduates-in-training-to-be-physics-teachers-1.3307535?mode=amp) mentioned towards the end that it didn't include students from Trinity, Hibernia, or the undergraduate courses (UL, DCU and I'm pretty sure Maynooth too) and yet the dramatic, misinformed headline is all people reference.

Yes, and my experience, even from teaching physics is that students do tend to take it for the love of the subject. No one does physics for the laugh. In college it's the same. Those students I was in labs with in Maynooth loved their physics, and they (with the exception of those on the teacher training course of which there were 3 in my year doing physics), want careers in physics, they want to work at CERN, or for the ESA or cool stuff like that. Few of them take that route solely to go teaching.

mirrorwall14 · 05-12-2017 10:28pm

Moody_mona wrote: »

100% agree rainbowtrout. The most recent irish times article (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/only-six-graduates-in-training-to-be-physics-teachers-1.3307535?mode=amp) mentioned towards the end that it didn't include students from Trinity, Hibernia, or the undergraduate courses (UL, DCU and I'm pretty sure Maynooth too) and yet the dramatic, misinformed headline is all people reference.

I'd be interested to see Hibernia Figures. My experience of Maths and Music with them is that the classes are minuscule 2-4 students so even with two cohorts a year and two subjects there's probably only about 8-10 coming out in Maths annually and there is a shortage of maths. When I did my HDIP in maynooth way back there was at least 30 of us and that was only one intake graduating annually. Replicated across the colleges at the time that was a significantly larger quantity of teachers coming out. I wasn't surprised at the increasing shortages in maths in recent years

kkman40 · 12-12-2017 8:43pm

Hello All,
I am an engineer with a level 8 primary degree and for the last few months I have been looking into a career change to secondary teaching. I want to do both Maths & Physics. I thought I’d share my issues I’ve run into so far in meeting the subject requirements to allow for entry into the master of education courses. Hopefully this sheds some light on these issues and if anyone can input any further information/help and enlighten me I would be grateful. I’m going to highlight the problems outlined below with the Dept of Education and local politicians.

• It seems tat prior to 2017 my degree qualified for me to teach both Maths & Physics. There are now new subject requirements for 2017. Making stricter requirements I’m sure will benefit the quality of teachers however the difficulty for people with Engineering degrees & I imagine the applied sciences is that many of the modules are applied maths & physics, and therefore do not explicitly meet the subject requirement even though I would of covered a lot of the physics/maths topics in applied modules.

• Further to this I contacted the teaching council who said they do not assess the adequacy of previous studies. This means that it is basically up to the applicant to assess if they meet the subject requirements. This to me is very flaky.

• For Maths I was recommended the open university M208 course which runs over 9 months, which is fine, but it’s just for Maths. There does not seem to be a similar option for Science subjects. How do I confirm that I meet the requirements for Physics? Well I can’t!!. My university could not help either.

• It seems that Ireland could do with the 6 month conversion courses like they have in the UK as outlined in this article in recent irish times article " intervention-key-to-getting-critical-mass-of-physics-teachers"

• Currently to convert to Maths Secondary teaching I’d have to study for 3 years ( M208 + 2yrs PME). This is a lot of time & money which is obviously not very inviting. I could prob do a PHD in that time.

So all in all this process seems very convoluted process for engineers. The way it stands we are not going to be able to entice them to become teachers in the Stem subjects There is no framework in place to meet the subject requirements/qualifications and become a teacher. It’s a pity.
Does anybody have any recommendations on studying further abroad?

rainbowtrout · 12-12-2017 9:07pm

kkman40 wrote: »

Hello All,

• For Maths I was recommended the open university M208 course which runs over 9 months, which is fine, but it’s just for Maths. There does not seem to be a similar option for Science subjects. How do I confirm that I meet the requirements for Physics? Well I can’t!!. My university could not help either.

• It seems that Ireland could do with the 6 month conversion courses like they have in the UK as outlined in this article in recent irish times article " intervention-key-to-getting-critical-mass-of-physics-teachers"

• Currently to convert to Maths Secondary teaching I’d have to study for 3 years ( M208 + 2yrs PME). This is a lot of time & money which is obviously not very inviting. I could prob do a PHD in that time.

So all in all this process seems very convoluted process for engineers. The way it stands we are not going to be able to entice them to become teachers in the Stem subjects There is no framework in place to meet the subject requirements/qualifications and become a teacher. It’s a pity.
Does anybody have any recommendations on studying further abroad?

The Teaching Council are an absolute pain in the arse to deal with at the best of times, but at the same time it seems that you are expecting some special course to be available to engineers and I don't understand why this should be the case.

The Open University has been a common route for Maths simply because it's done through distance learning, that's why it's easy to recommend. It would be worth bearing in mind that any Irish university could have seen a gap in the market here and offered the same in Ireland in the same format, but they don't.

There is a very obvious reason why there isn't an equivalent for sciences. You have to do lab work for sciences and that's not possible through distance learning. It's also not the responsibility of Open University to provide conversion courses for Irish people considering retraining as teachers.

As it happens, I am a teacher and I upskilled to become a physics teacher, so it is possible. I had first year physics in my degree and registered as an occasional student in Maynooth and did the second and third year physics modules in their Science education degree over two years. Attending labs was mandatory. My school timetabled be to be able to attend labs.

The Irish Times article takes into account physics graduates doing the PME, it did not take into account undergraduates doing science teaching degrees with physics as one of their chosen subjects.

Doing a 6 month conversion course in the UK doesn't make it right. The UK have had teacher shortages for the last 15 years or more. I don't believe short cuts should be taken to put teachers in classrooms.

It might take you three years to convert to become a teacher, but even if you had a suitable degree you would have to take 2 years to qualify. Same goes for anyone else converting with a degree which is currently unsuitable.

There is a framework in place to meet subject requirements and become a teacher, 1 year in OU, 2 years PME. You just don't like the route available.

kkman40 · 12-12-2017 9:41pm

Thanks for the reply and sharing rainbowtrout

I didn’t mean to make it look like I was complaining about the open university and the courses they have available. The maths course available seems grand. I was just wondering in general how I might meet the requirements for physics.

Ill have to get creative and see if I can attend some physics modules that would fit in with my schedule. I do think there is a gap in the market for some type of science conversion courses that applicants could do part time whilst working. And your correct the route is not too appealing to me at the moment. I suppose I could train as a Maths teacher and try and complete gaps in my physics modules as I go.

dory · 12-12-2017 9:57pm

kkman40 wrote: »

So all in all this process seems very convoluted process for engineers. The way it stands we are not going to be able to entice them to become teachers in the Stem subjects There is no framework in place to meet the subject requirements/qualifications and become a teacher. It’s a pity.

Whoa! Are you trying to make sense of the education system?? You're in for a lifetime of disappointment. They recently lauched a new language strategy to get us all speaking foreign languages......just after the increase in Wellbeing hours meant all our language classes had to be cut. The whole system is frustrating.

To answer your question, I think the Open University is the way to go. When I was going through all this my degree wasn't on the list of qualifying degrees. I wrote to the TC and they said something along the lines of "But of course your degree is ok" (so put it on the site?). It's probably not very moral but I know a good few people who had their Open University post sent to a friend in Belfast so that they could pay the UK rates!

kkman40 · 12-12-2017 10:48pm

dory wrote: »

Whoa! Are you trying to make sense of the education system?? You're in for a lifetime of disappointment. They recently lauched a new language strategy to get us all speaking foreign languages......just after the increase in Wellbeing hours meant all our language classes had to be cut. The whole system is frustrating.

Yes big organisations can be frustrating and its interesting how decisions are made, its not easily solved.

dory wrote: »

I wrote to the TC and they said something along the lines of "But of course your degree is ok" (so put it on the site?).

OMG!

dory wrote: »

It's probably not very moral but I know a good few people who had their Open University post sent to a friend in Belfast so that they could pay the UK rates!

Genius!

rainbowtrout · 12-12-2017 10:50pm

dory wrote: »

Whoa! Are you trying to make sense of the education system?? You're in for a lifetime of disappointment. They recently lauched a new language strategy to get us all speaking foreign languages......just after the increase in Wellbeing hours meant all our language classes had to be cut. The whole system is frustrating.

To answer your question, I think the Open University is the way to go. When I was going through all this my degree wasn't on the list of qualifying degrees. I wrote to the TC and they said something along the lines of "But of course your degree is ok" (so put it on the site?). It's probably not very moral but I know a good few people who had their Open University post sent to a friend in Belfast so that they could pay the UK rates!

Colleges pay to have their degrees assessed. If they have had the degree assessed by this method, and it meets requirements, it goes on the TC list. If a college has not had a degree assessed then the individual must have it assessed themselves. So it might meet requirements but not be on the list.

r93kaey5p2izun · 12-12-2017 11:54pm

I know an engineer who qualified for Physics by doing one OU module. It was only a year or two ago. Lab work wasn't a problem - I don't think the OU module involved any labs (maybe there was a residential week I wasn't aware of - that's the case for several of their modules) and I just assumed whatever practical work was done during her undergrad was adequate.

The big issue now though is you will also need 10 credits each of Biology and Chemistry to qualify for JC Science.

evolving_doors · 13-12-2017 3:54pm

dory wrote: »

Whoa! Are you trying to make sense of the education system?? You're in for a lifetime of disappointment. They recently lauched a new language strategy to get us all speaking foreign languages......just after the increase in Wellbeing hours meant all our language classes had to be cut. The whole system is frustrating.

To answer your question, I think the Open University is the way to go. When I was going through all this my degree wasn't on the list of qualifying degrees. I wrote to the TC and they said something along the lines of "But of course your degree is ok" (so put it on the site?). It's probably not very moral but I know a good few people who had their Open University post sent to a friend in Belfast so that they could pay the UK rates!

Tis fraud though! Mightnt be good for the Garda vetting either.
Although I did consider it myself one time.

dory · 13-12-2017 6:38pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Colleges pay to have their degrees assessed. If they have had the degree assessed by this method, and it meets requirements, it goes on the TC list. If a college has not had a degree assessed then the individual must have it assessed themselves. So it might meet requirements but not be on the list.

I understand that. But it was just an annoyance as Maynooth seemed to have paid for the rest of their degrees to be assessed, but not my one.

Macmillan150 · 14-12-2017 6:34am

UL do a maths course for teachers. It's for people already teaching maths who qualified prior to the extra maths requirement. I do think you need to be teaching before you can do the course but if you'll get on the pme it may be possible to teach and do this course together afterwards. I don't know enough about it but it might be something to look into anyway.

rainbowtrout · 14-12-2017 12:44pm

Macmillan150 wrote: »

UL do a maths course for teachers. It's for people already teaching maths who qualified prior to the extra maths requirement. I do think you need to be teaching before you can do the course but if you'll get on the pme it may be possible to teach and do this course together afterwards. I don't know enough about it but it might be something to look into anyway.

Can't get on the PME without a subject that he can register for as qualified.

Macmillan150 · 14-12-2017 4:26pm

Just In need case he can qualify as a physics teacher more easily than maths. Maths is a subject he could then pick up later in UL if his school supported him.

MizzBiz · 22-12-2022 3:58pm

I’m wondering if anyone has up to date information on this topic. I completed maths modules in the OU back in 2015 and I can’t get anywhere with the teaching council to find out whether they are enough to add maths on to my subjects

I’ve been accepted onto the UL course (was notified On Tueaday) and the deadline to accept is today. I just spoke to the teaching council again and they said I have to apply to add on the subject and an assessor looks at it someone outside the teaching council. Of course this will be after Christmas and too late for the €250 non-refundable deposit I have to pay by the end of the day today to UL.

kelbal · 31-12-2022 12:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120025899#Comment_120025899

Its impossible to say TBH, without seeing the modules you've done. But my hunch is that if you've done extra OU modules in Maths, you're probably fine to be qualified to teach it. That being said, I've no idea what your background is. Have you a STEM qualification previously? That'd put you in a good place. But if you've an Arts degree, and you've just done 2 or 3 OU Maths modules, thats iffy. My experience with the TC over the last few years in terms of trying to get registered for subjects is that there's a lot to be said for persistence and badgering them with messages. Things like "There's a massive national shortage of maths teachers, surely my level of education is beyond what is required...." etc.

You won't get anywhere with asking them if modules x, y and z are sufficient to teach a subject. Its up to you to look at the self-assessment guidelines for each subject and determine if you're meeting the requirements. Then an assessor looks over your submission. I know - it gives you zero assurances when trying to make a decision on your future

Alex86Eire · 31-12-2022 8:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120025899#Comment_120025899

Nobody here can answer this unfortunately and the teaching council are notoriously difficult to deal with. Just be aware that you need to have completed a maths pedagogy module completed so check for that in your list.

tscul32 · 22-01-2023 8:53am

Hoping someone might have some insight for me. I'm applying for the PME next year. Going to spend the year doing some comp sci modules in the ATU (they have a HDip for upskilling teachers but you don't have to be a teacher to do it. So I would qualify as a comp sci teacher. However I would also like to teach maths.

My understanding is that you can select two subjects on your subject declaration form and that once you're on your PME course the teaching council will assess your subject declaration form and tell you where your shortfall is should you wish to qualify in that particular subject. But you would get to do the pedagogy in that subject?? Is this right?

In my case I have a BSc in Applied Sciences with Comp Sci and Maths as my subjects but I dropped the maths for Software Engineering in year 4. So now I have 70 credits in Comp Sci and 50 in maths (incidentally i also have 46 in French).

So for maths I'll be 10 credits short, but also have a problem in that so far I have been unable to get a definitive list of the modules I completed in either subject as I started my course 30 years ago! The ATU will sort me out for the Comp Sci and I'm happy enough to do that as things like App development, even Project Mgt weren't really a thing back then - we barely had mobile phones.

The Hibernia website says if you have 40 credits in another subject that you should choose this as your second subject.

I'm wondering if I can have maths as a second subject and do the pedagogy and then it's up to me to get the modules covered if I want to qualify for maths. I've looked at the UL course mentioned above and it says it's aimed at those teaching maths who aren't qualified. That would suggest that with the shortage of maths teachers, if I had the pedagogy done that even without the box ticking of the Teaching Council it might still be possible to end up teaching maths? Is this right? Are there any ramifications of being "unqualified"?

I'm looking at DCU and will mail them my PME questions too but with the 2023 applications closing in the next week or two I figure they'll be up to their eyes so might not hear back for a bit. Hoping someone here might know how it all works... I know plenty of primary teachers but not secondary unfortunately.

Treppen · 22-01-2023 9:10am

To my knowledge the UL course didn't run every year.

tscul32 · 22-01-2023 9:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120140895#Comment_120140895

It's running this year at least.

am_zarathustra · 22-01-2023 8:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120140866#Comment_120140866

Are you going to be based in Dublin for your PME? If you need help finding a placement PM me, I can give you a list of schools with Com Sci on the LC atm to help with finding placements.

Lots of schools want Com Sci on the curriculum but don't have teachers, if your solid in that then they will give you maths. Qualified is to get in the door. I technically teach 3 subjects I'm not "qualifed" to but have third level experience in. The skill in teaching is only partially subject knowledge (and it sounds like you have a decent whack of maths anyway). Maths is rife with STEM and business teachers, if they pulled those hours in the morning there would be pandemonium. Don't rush to fix that. You'll have enough expense doing the PME.

Are you set on DCU for a particular reason?

EDIT: for pedagogy in com sci, the PDST do amazing training, you can sign up for this once your in a school and it's fantastic

tscul32 · 22-01-2023 9:42pm

Great help, thank you so much. DCU because that's the most convenient (also have 3 kids) and I've heard good things. I'm not sure what the points were last year but I can get extra for work experience so feel confident enough.

I'm familiar with the local schools offering Comp Sci but any extra help always appreciated. I've always had teaching in the back of my mind but the final push was the lack of comp sci teachers and 3 kids who want/will want to do it. I'll be 50 before I start teaching so not too bothered about full hours, also very lucky to be in a good financial place so even part time hours would be fine. Happy to sub for local schools. So good to know that I could offer strengths in maths and maybe French too if I brush up - without having to redo my maths modules or whatever French needs.

Thanks for the PDST tip.

kelbal · 26-01-2023 10:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120143900#Comment_120143900

I did pretty much the same route as you - went back as a mature student to do the DCU PME, graduated in 2020 - teaching Maths & Comp Sci now. Highly recommend DCU. Their structure of a not-too-hectic 4hrs per week teaching in school, as well as lectures being on a Tuesday & Wednesday evening was perfect. They were also significantly cheaper than Hibernia at the time as well. If you have any questions, give me a PM

Qualifying to teach Maths at Second level

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