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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,497 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Specifically to the boast about the NHS and its free GP service, the vultures are circling and its days are numbered if the Tories have their way. The stalking horses have already been deployed, I'd be slow to pin my future health provision on the UK model - It's being chipped away.


    Post edited by pixelburp on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Count Dracula


    Well they are entitled to fight tooth and nail in fairness, their very existence is to prevent the creation of an all island republic?

    Constitutionally the Free State has no influence on the political direction of the six counties without the permission of the people of Northern Ireland, that is a key protection of all citizens of the six counties. The Free State vote is secondary to the consensus of the British Prime Minister - who as far as I understand is the only person who can legally initiate any vote on six county devolution? Any referenda on the matter has to be proposed and passed first in Westminster, then the six counties can vote and then if relevant the Free State gets to vote. That is my understanding? Now the Irish government are allowed to request a certain amount of referendums every certain amount of years, such as the one that Sinn Féin are proposing to initiate if they can form a Free State Government, but as far as I understand this process also needs the permission of Westminster?

    The reality is that a referendum is unlikely to materialize over the next few years? The only people really pushing for one are Sinn Fein and the reality is, that is that, it offers them some sort or relevancy or voice in Free State politics? But only 1 in 4 people are actually supporting them in the Free State, so it is unlikely they will get the opportunity?

    Apart from constitutional requirements, or legal changes or other necessary transformations ... the real thing that needs doing in the six counties ,is genuine cross community interaction, especially in traditional working class areas. That fight needs ending bigtime. If that bull shight doesn't go away both communities are looking down the reality of a UI not materiallsing until every last bit of hope and aspiration is smothered out of the place and it is left a bitter desolate living space inhabited by people who are afraid to mix with people up the street? All that secretarian crap needs finishing yesterday, big time.

    It was great to see more progressive loyalists like the Alliance party see an increase in their popularity, not just for their hard work, but to give the loyalist persuasion more feasible options. Naomi Long seems sound out, she speaks a lot of sense and wants the best for Northern Ireland, I like people like that and respect them deeply. She recognises that being proactive about the norths future is actually going to be a better way of finding suitable solutions as opposed to what the DUP or UUP have on offer?

    Phuck all that flag commission bull shight, if someone wants to fly a flag what about it? It is not as if it a shock to anyone anymore? This outrage, from both sides, as soon as one side does something has gotta go bigtime. That will take years, but fingers crossed.

    The other thing that needs to be iterated to people is that there is not going to be any great big victory for either side here? Nationalist notions of a referendum are simply not going to materialise with out the support of Westminster, it is unfair for the leadership of Sinn Féín to be misguiding their supporters into the feasibility of getting one? Which goes back to my point about there being no winners, there will be no winners of the six counties, bragging rights will not happen. The only hope for all communities and people is to look forward to a better future, that is entirely possible. But see the DUP there doing phuck all about it ....and thinking they are smart sitting on their hands? That is a negative overreaction to an impossible scenario, they need to wise up and get involved with their future while the buses are still picking people up and going somewhere? Their social policies are draconian, quite literally, they are not protecting their electorate by depriving their homosexuals marriage rights, or controlling the right of life of their pregnant women , amongst other matters? That is a massive issue that could well cause the DUP's power to capitulate? They should not be letting their policy of opposing Free State liberalism get in the way of protecting the rights of the people whose rights they are supposed to be defending? That is why Naomi Long is cleaning up, young loyalist voters are struggling to warm themselves to flutes who are not playing decent tunes. That won't work either.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    “Constitutionally the Free State has no influence on the political direction of the six counties without the permission of the people of Northern Ireland, that is a key protection of all citizens of the six counties”

    Well there’s even less risk of that considering the Free State ceased to exist on 29 December 1937.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    And the sovereign republic of Ireland has plenty of influence via the GFA on the political direction if it so choses to have.

    Perhaps we are about to see that more clearly if there is a period of Direct Rule/Joint Authority.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,613 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Northern Ireland has a lot to offer. We're well educated, hard working, we have Pharmaceutical research, financial services and manufacturing. we could be a real asset a united Ireland.


    What's the stat again about the percentage of workers in NI who work for the public sector?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭martinedwards


    Oh there are loads..... a lot of GB civil service is based in NI.

    There are also several of the big UK banks who have call centres here. I would be very surprised if they didn't pull out as they are proud of not having "foreign" call centres.....

    The new Ireland in whatever shape that was, would be taking on a huge chunk of newly unemployed people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭martinedwards


    As it stands Alliance and Naomi Long can have no place in the NI assembly power sharing leadership.

    Were the election to give Alliance 75% of the vote, she still can't be 1st minister as the 1st and dep 1st ministers need to be from either side of the nationalist/unionist divide.

    A real shame as she engages with anyone who will talk with her, and actually comes across as an adult, unlike many of the others.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The GFA has evolved over it's 25 years with ancilliary agreements. No reason that reform can't be looked at.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    I believe Alliance is officially classed as a Unionist party so I don't think they would be excluded from the 1st Minister post


    They're definitely one of the more pragmatic parties up there and I think the recent swing towards them in the last election is a definite sign that more people are shifting away from the Nationalist/Unionist divide and want a government which generates results and not just news headlines

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    They would have to opt for being a Unionist party currently to be considered for the post. They don't.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Fair point, but I believe they officially favour remaining part of the UK while it benefits the people of NI (which interestingly implies they favour leaving when it doesn't)


    I guess if they were the largest (or second largest) party in the assembly then that could be taken as implied unionism without the party actually taking a side


    As you said earlier, there's scope to amend or possibly reinterpret the GFA depending on the circumstances

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,050 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    I'm from Donegal, there is a large protestant community in east Donegal that became part of the republic with very little issues. As Church control in both communities fades that difference will be even less.

    The NHS may have been a stronger argument a few years ago but with NHS in it's current state it is not that strong a selling point. No one will be denied treatment due to money and if paying 50 euro to see a GP means I can actually see a GP not too high a price for me.

    Integration in a future united Ireland will be a complex issue no doubt about that but the economic reality for NI is they are totally dependant on the block grant from westminster. If London starts to cut back on that the North will be in serious financial trouble they are not generating enough wealth themselves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,050 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    So @martinedwards you raised the point that a lot of the well educated and hard working people of NI may find themselves unemployed

    I'm going to turn that around slightly and ask the question of how bad life in the UK would need to get for the people of NI to feel like they should ditch it and join the Republic?

    At the end of the day a unification referendum is more about the future than the present. The NHS is better now than anything the Republic can offer, but given the trajectory of both countries can you say with certainty that will always be the case?

    Same for the job market, a lot of NI's high value industries have major bases in the republic as well. So I don't think there'd be a sudden shortage of work for well educated employees

    I think you're correct that the civil service in NI would be significantly smaller post unification and there would likely need to be some settlement between the UK, EU and ROI around civil service pensions and redundancy

    But I disagree that unification would automatically lead to the destruction of the NI economy, more that it would only happen if the case for unification was better than staying in the UK

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,330 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Not that I know of, I was in A+E in hospital and had to wait 11 hours and pay €100. I also pay €60 per visit to a doctor, and as a family have paid tens of thousands of euro over the years for private health insurance. in 2021 46.4% of the Irish population had private health insurance according to figures released by the Health Insurance Authority (HIA). And despite this private health insurance, we still have to pay through the nose for doctor visits ( paid €60 recently for a 5 minute talk with a doctor ) , a&e etc.

    Suppose it is not surprising our healthcare in Ireland is so poor, despite the fact we pay higher vat, excise duries etc than the UK.


    Ireland's spend on healthcare per capita is among the highest in Europe. Ireland is well above the EU average (€3,197) and spends just under €1000 per capita more than the UK.

    Despite this, Ireland has just 181 doctors per 100,000 of the population, lower than the UK, Bulgaria and Lithuania,

    Ireland had the third lowest number of hospital beds available in the EU in 2019, above only Sweden and Denmark. It has been worse (relatively) in the past: we ranked in last place in 2012 and 2013 before we overtook Sweden, and have remained at the lower end of the spectrum ever since.

    Many would say the problems with the HSE aren’t caused by underfunding but rather a bloated and inefficient middle management.


    The NHS is not perfect but is much much better than the HSE. Northerners would be mad to join us when we cannot even get out own house in order.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,330 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    As Mr Kielty said I think, an awful lot of people in Ireland would have to change their attitudes for a U.I to work....for example, if the Irish national ladies soccor team chants "UP THE RA" what hope is there? As he said himself once, the percentange of protestants in the 26 counties declined since partition, while the percentage of catholics rose in N.I.....both states were often cold houses for the minorities.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Of course Mr Kielty fails to mention the two month festival of hate and triumphalism that takes place every year to put the onus on somebody else.

    The fact is we all have to moderate our behaviour and learn to commemorate with respect and the best place to that is in an environment with the principal cause removed = partition.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,268 ✭✭✭jh79


    Why would a United Ireland be a better place to commemorate than what we have now? Just because partition was the cause doesn't mean removing it is the solution. You have said yourself that unity wouldn't end sectarianism.

    It is as if you are saying "Republicans" won't moderate their behaviour while partition exists but the behaviour of the other side is hardly going to improve if their worst fears become reality either. The grievances just switch sides and nothing has actually been solved.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    I mean the percentage of Catholics has also declined in recent years, I'm not sure I'd say Ireland is a cold house for minorities, more like the general population got less convinced about sky wizards raining frogs on the Egyptians

    I absolutely agree though that a lot of the republican attitudes and pro IRA camp would have to button up their mouths for a united Ireland to work.

    It'll be interesting to see what happens in the event of a reunification vote. The likes of SF will obviously like to put their stamp on it and make it the triumph of Irish Republicanism over the invading Brits


    I think FF and FG on the other hand would take a more reconciliatory approach

    Meanwhile the unionist parties will be saying the vote was rigged and gearing up for a UVF uprising

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Republican behaviour is moderate in comparison to a two month festival of hate and triumphalism.

    Unionist supremacy stems from partition. They have gotten used to being supreme since. Much of the triumphalism has it's roots in winning partition.

    Remove partition and you begin to normalise and normality will diminish sectarianism. It stands to reason.

    I would also add, nobody should be standing around waiting to be 'welcomed'. Nobody cared what welcome Nationalists got when partition happened - they got on with it and made the best of it and have achieved the GFA and more since. There are many in Unionism who still don't welcome them or what they achieved.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,330 ✭✭✭Francis McM


    Amazin raisin, nobody said the Ireland is a cold house for minorities ( although protestants here usually have to pay fees , usually thousands per year, in order to be educuated in a school of their ethos where as Catholics usually can educated in a school of their ethos for free ). What Mr Kielty said was both states were often cold houses for minorities. I think he also said if people stopped chanting "UP THE RA" (like the Irish national ladies soccor team) it would be a help.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,618 ✭✭✭quokula


    I lived in the UK for a decade and while you do have to pay a few quid to see a GP in Ireland, at least you can actually get an appointment, which was a near impossibility in England. The healthcare I've received has been better than in the NHS (which continues to get worse and worse under the Tories) - the NHS have shorter wait times but when you do see a consultant they're under so much pressure to get you out the door and see the next patient that the care suffers dramatically. I've had to wait longer for the same chronic condition in the HSE, but once I did see a consultant the quality of care was much higher.

    That anecdotal evidence bares out in stats too - Ireland has better outcomes despite longer wait times - cancer survival rates are higher in Ireland than the UK for example so there's no reason to be terrified there. Another sign of the difference in outcomes is that Ireland has lower infant mortality than Northern Ireland and higher life expectancy too.

    And healthcare is not free but costs are capped and there are plenty of supports and exemptions for people who can't afford it - it's not like the US.

    The HSE has massive flaws and inefficiencies but it's not the drop in quality from the NHS that many people assume.

    I can understand other concerns but this is really not something to worry about.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,901 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    This once again shows the naivety of those dreaming of a united Ireland.

    It is not a stroke of a pen concession to remove the requirement for teachers to have Irish. It is a legislative provision, it would mean the full repeal of the Irish Languages Act, if not, it would require horrendous expense to provide an Irish language education for anyone who wanted it in a united Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,318 ✭✭✭blackbox


    As Bill Clinton is alleged to have said, "it's the economy, stupid".

    If people in the North vote to leave the UK, fair dues to them.

    They would then need to run their own economy for a number of years and run their services (including health) within their own budgets.

    When well established as a stable entity, they could (if they chose) then apply to merge with the Republic. At that point the people of the Republic could also have a referendum on the subject.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Suspended for some teachers with the stroke of this ministers pen.

    Minister drops teachers' Irish test - Independent.ie

    All legislation will be up for a review if we create a UI.

    We are not subsuming/taking over NI as you seem to be suggesting but creating a new country that accomodates all the people of this island.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,901 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Eh, that is gone a long time because it never made any sense. Why make a science teacher at second-level prove that they can speak Irish. What's more, the process that led to that decision took nearly two years from start of proposal to implementation of decision.

    However, at primary level, Irish is a huge important integral part of the curriculum, backed up by the requirements of the Irish language Act. Can't be sorted at the stroke of a pen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,842 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Yeh it can. The Primary School Unions were calling on the Minister to do that to meet teacher recruitment demands.

    It can be suspended and legislation changed in due course. No big deal there if the will exists.

    We do want to accomodate all in a new Ireland, don't you agree?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    If we're going comparing healthcare services, I always found the idea of the French system seems quite good


    It's similar to our system but prices are heavily regulated and private health insurance isn't common. It's also much better funded and waiting times are much lower

    GPs for example are limited to something like €12 and are required to have a price list visible in the reception area. Most hospital treatments are either free or covered to something like 70% of costs


    While free healthcare is a good idea in principle, it is open to political interference, as the UK is seeing where the level of care seems to strongly depend what area you live in (and what party that area votes for)

    I think having a small universal charge makes it hard to claim the health system is being overrun with supposed freeloaders

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,050 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    I think any form of UI will have to keep some form of autonomy for NI same as it and Scotland now have in the UK.

    We can just have 2 sets of rules for primary teachers in the one country.



This discussion has been closed.
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